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 Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 18:34

Quote :
The trait also applies to Lelith Hesperax who can most assuredly use it.

And the Succubus can exchange her Splinter Pistol for an Agoniser or Impaler….how can she not use the trait?" - Reeecius 2017

Considering these guys are, in all likelihood, on GWs payroll, you'd think they'd at least learn the basics of PR.

Reeecius has continually antagonized and condescended the community about valid concerns. In a way, though, I prefer this to the meaningless fluff given out in other circumstances. It at least shows where they stand in regards to us

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 18:40

The thing that bothers me the most with this response is that it means he's either incredibly incompetent and truly not able to see why this trait is unfun as is, or he's being willfully ignorant.
Yes, technically we can use the trait, but in order to do so, we're sacrificing fun as well. We can't use both the trait and a pistol for a succubus HQ. We need to actually pay points for the privilege of this warlord trait(and lose out on the real power of the Succubus imo - the blast pistol.) Her weapon in no world warrants a -1 to hit to begin with; it's one of the questions that still baffles me in the release of 8th. Why? Why is S5, ap-3, D1 4 A so OP it needs a -1 to hit??


Edit: How can she not use it? I am not seeing this. Are you referring to the Archite blade being -1 to hit? If so you give her a different melee weapon to utilize it.

If there is some sort of mistake, let me know and I can pass it up the food chain but I am not seeing it.
- Reecius 2017
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 19:30

Crikey. I've played 40k for about 10 minutes and even I can see the error in this warlord trait.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 21:05

Well this could also force us into taking +1 ws as the default combat drug for the succubus :/ that way from turn 3 on she get 3 hits on a 5+ instead of a 6+ even with the archite glaive ... so can the succubus use it ... Yeah ... Practical, not in the least, pain in my archon ass, most definitely.
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 21:08

Archon 91, correct me if I'm wrong, but the +1 WS is not the same as adding +1 to hit. As far as I'm aware +1WS will not affect the succubus or lilith as their WS is already at max
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 21:20

Allow me to double check the rulebook after I'm off work but I don't think anything in there says you cannot achieve a ws, bs skill or save of 1+, but it does say that a roll of a 1 always fails however if a model would achieve a ws of 1+ should they encounter a -1 to hit they would still be able to hit on a 2+ as they would technically be hitting on a 1+, that is my understanding of how it works, however as said I will make doubly sure in the rules and amend my comment if I find contradiction to my understanding.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 21:38

Quote :
Allow me to double check the rulebook after I'm off work but I don't think anything in there says you cannot achieve a ws, bs skill or save of 1+, but it does say that a roll of a 1 always fails however if a model would achieve a ws of 1+ should they encounter a -1 to hit they would still be able to hit on a 2+ as they would technically be hitting on a 1+, that is my understanding of how it works, however as said I will make doubly sure in the rules and amend my comment if I find contradiction to my understanding.

True, however, in this case, the -1 to hit is functionally, but not specifically, canceled out. I'll try to represent it visually.

So this is the Hit Rolls with the +1 WS. A 1 always fails, and a six triggers the trait. Functionally, it operates as a 2+ WS.
1+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ ----

Now, if we factor in the -1 to hit. That 1+ is shifted to succeeding on a 2+, which is functionally identical. However, notice that 6+ is now outside of the range, meaning the trait can't activate.
1+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ ----
---- 1+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+

Tl;dr: +1 WS will cancel out a negative hit modifier, but not enable the trait to be activated.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 21:56

Mmm, that straightened that out for me, so effectively what they gave us is a preview of the warlord trait Lelith gets in the codex as she's really the only one that can use it to it's fullest effect.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 28 2017, 23:04

Quote :


"The trait also applies to Lelith Hesperax who can most assuredly use it.

And the Succubus can exchange her Splinter Pistol for an Agoniser or Impaler….how can she not use the trait?" - Reeecius 2017


Shocked
No

You cannot be serious. I mean...
Please excuse me, I need to go transform into the Hulk now.
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 02:38

I think it is probably appropriate to question the motives of someone who gets the benefit of playing with rules before everyone else and how positive their 'review' is going to be. Honestly? There wasn't a single negative take on any item throughout the review...surely that looks questionable to everyone else too, right?

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 02:41

Quote :
surely that looks questionable to everyone else too, right?
There's a simple explanation:

$$$

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 02:41

Update!

I commented on FLG with the following:

Reecius, please answer this because I am legitimately baffled.

Why does the archite glaive still give a -1 to hit at all? Is there a reason that a s+2(on a S3 model) ap-3 D1 was thought to be powerful enough that it gets the same drawback an ork power klaw or a power fist does?

The problem that me and many others are having is that in order to utilize the Succubus warlord trait, you sacrifice fun – every unit and their dog has an agonizer in the DE codex. The archite glaive is the cool unique such weapon, but you can’t use it effectively with your succubus and the warlord trait anymore at all.
In addition, its impossible to make a pumped up such cult HQ , since the agonizer replaces the splinter pistol, meaning that your succubus can’t get parasites kiss…

It just all seems like a big oversight – me (and many of the people at the dark city) just can’t believe that it isn’t, since an archite glaive is a strong but far far far from warranting a -1 to hit, especially since the succubus has only 4 attacks to begin with. It just seems to us that the trait was designed either maliciously (so that the loadout HAS to match the actual model that’s being made… hooray!) Or it was an oversight.
I’m still inclined to believe the latter, but I mean you have to see the problem here, yeah?

Reecius did respond and said:

Yeah, I feel you on that. I actually don’t know why they gave the weapon that profile, honestly, but they did. I agree that it would be cool to use the Glaive instead. And yes, correct that you wouldn’t be able to get the pistol which is annoying if you want to make a Succubus melee character. You could give the Trait to Lelith who makes great use of it, and then the Pistol to another character.

I think the main take away is that this isn’t all you are going to get, this is just what you got for now. I think that is why it is so hard for me to understand the perspective of some people who are upset as I know all of the truly awesome stuff heading your way, this is just GW saying: thank you for being patient, here’s some cool goodies to hold you over until you get your codex.

So, make of that what you all will. I will say that I do respect the fact he is responding to many of the more hostile comments on the site.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 02:54

I have just done some quick numbers on the new warlord trait options for the Succubus.

The trait on average increases the number of attacks by 50% (a 1/6 chance of getting 3 attacks is an average of 1/2 bonus attacks for each attack made) although it is highly variable. That is fairly good, and makes the +1 attacks Drug a bit more tempting. From turn 3, that becomes a 1/3 chance of getting 3 attacks, which on average doubles the number of attacks.

Average unsaved wounds for Archite Glaive and +1A drugs:
Guardsman 2.22
Ork 2.22
Marine 1.85
Terminator 1.48
Marine Bike 1.85

Average unsaved wounds for Agoniser with warlord trait (without in brackets) and +1A drugs:
Guardsman 3.13 (2.08)
Ork 3.13 (2.08)
Marine 2.08 (1.39)
Terminator 1.56 (1.04)
Marine Bike 2.08 (1.39)

Average unsaved wounds for Impaler with warlord trait (without in brackets) and +1S drugs:
Guardsman 2.78 (1.85)
Ork 2.50 (1.67)
Marine 1.25 (0.83)
Terminator 1.67 (1.11)
Marine Bike 2.50 (1.67)

The short version is with the warlord trait, an Agoniser Succubus is superior to an Archite Glaive Succubus. For certain targets the Impaler is actually better too. While it is annoying the iconic Succubus weapon isn't their prime choice now, this warlord trait does give us a small boost, which is what a warlord trait is meant to do.

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 02:59

Interesting... does this factor in the potential use of the parasites kiss as well? Are we assuming that the Archite glaive doesn't have a -1 to hit in these calculations?
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 04:32

Are those calculations with the glaive assuming +1 attack warlord trait on the succubus?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 05:03

To answer those questions:
1) Parasites Kiss ignored
2) Glaive has -1 to hit included
3) Glaive calculations assuming +1 attack combat drugs, but no warlord trait as such

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 05:51

@Kantalla wrote:
To answer those questions:
1) Parasites Kiss ignored
2) Glaive has -1 to hit included
3) Glaive calculations assuming +1 attack combat drugs, but no warlord trait as such

Probably should factor in the +1 attack warlord trait, as that is the real competition for the trait we're mathhammering. It basically gives the Glaive a 25% damage increase...

(EDIT: Less actually due to the drugs meaning going from 5 attacks to 6 rather than 4 to 5)


Last edited by FuelDrop on Wed Nov 29 2017, 05:53; edited 1 time in total
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 05:52

20% if you take the attack drug (but I prefer the movement drug for her usually, since she does not fit in venoms with the other wyches)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 10:02

From Reece's comments I have no idea whether GW will be changing the Glaive in the codex. On the one hand he says:

Quote :
I get why DE players wouldn’t [sic] jump to this conclusion as they lack the information, consider that these rules are perhaps geared more towards Codex DE than Index. I know that doesn’t do squat for them now, as they are playing with what they have currently, but that is possibly the reality.

but on the other hand is saying:

Quote :
I actually don’t know why they gave the weapon that profile, honestly, but they did

Which kind of implies that it's not changing.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 18:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:

but on the other hand is saying:

Quote :
I actually don’t know why they gave the weapon that profile, honestly, but they did

Which kind of implies that it's not changing.

Not really, as it is past-tense, and could easily be just referring to the decisions made in designing the index.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 22:20

So I really hope this means that they plan on giving us a codex soon as apparently Reece knows that these changes are based on what our codex army is going to look like but admits that they are just a bit useless to us now ... But that doesn't explain why the only points change we saw was .. to the court ... Our weapons and models better become AMAZING for what they are if they are gonna stay the same points (I'm referring more to wyches than kabalites here)
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 29 2017, 22:38

Kantalla, are those numbers for before turn or after? It will be interesting to know which weapon would be better before and after that separation.

Reeces answer was so much more empathetic than yesterday's, which was equivalent of "get stuffed". But then your point was well worded Baden. Hardly ranty at all. Almost like you weren't on the internet...
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Thu Nov 30 2017, 02:24

@LordSplata wrote:


Reeces answer was so much more empathetic than yesterday's, which was equivalent of "get stuffed". But then your point was well worded Baden. Hardly ranty at all. Almost like you weren't on the internet...

It appears that people might have a higher likelihood of responding in a more positive manner when you don't scream at them! Amazing! Wink
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Thu Nov 30 2017, 02:35

@LordSplata wrote:
Kantalla, are those numbers for before turn or after?
I'm assuming you mean turn 3 for the +1 to hit? Original calculations were done before turn 3.

I have redone the calculations, and made a couple of changes to the analysis:
1) Using the +1 attack warlord trait for the Glaive option for a fair comparison
2) Included both turn 1-2 and turn 3+ in the analysis to see how much things change
3) Corrected a couple of errors in the wound rate for the Marine bikes



The Glaive is a better option against Marines and Terminators, but against lightly armoured or high toughness options the Agoniser is an improvement.

It still feels like I am clutching at straws to say this option is an improvement, but hopefully, post-Codex it will make more sense as an option.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Thu Nov 30 2017, 05:26

To be entirely fair as well the Glaive means you also have a pistol, which if its a blast pistol can be a significant game changer.
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