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 Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 19:53

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I just want the second Void Mine statagem in the Codex Very Happy

Now that would be a terror in the sky, not quite Stormraven level, but that would destroy a lot of units
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 20:04

I think the Voidraven is essentially a more specialized gunship than the Razorwing. Dark Scythes are very comparable to Disintegrator Cannons. But what you change is the Splinter Rifle + Cannon and Rockets vs the one-time Void Mine.

But as mentioned before, having a suitable target + getting into positioning can be a gamble. More so than most are willing to risk. Even-though I think the Voidraven gives you more for your money if you compare these units in a vacuum (also costs less then a Dissi RWJF and has more wounds).


On the matter of Splinter weapons
@amishprn86 wrote:
S3 -1ap i would take over poison...... I want ALL our weapons to have some AP over us having poison, its more fluffy to me.

That wouldn't do nearly as much and especially against higher-toughness enemies with a worse save (starting at T4 4+) it starts being worse statistically.


Personally, I don't think splinter weapons need to improve in stats. They just need to be less expensive and have more synergy with other parts of our army. Splinter Racks that re-roll failed hits, 5 pts Splinter Cannons or Shardcarbines as a common special weapon. I'd also love the Archon having an active ability (like in the Purge Coterie of 7th edition), where you choose an enemy and re-roll failed  hits/wounds against this target.

They might not be a good weapon, but everything is good when you can spam enough of it. I like Splinter weapons as a form of decadence where you simply drown your enemy in crap like it was in 5th edition. Given all the weapons that already exist, I struggle to come up with anything that is new interesting, fluffy and balanced.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 20:10

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think the Voidraven is essentially a more specialized gunship than the Razorwing. Dark Scythes are very comparable to Disintegrator Cannons. But what you change is the Splinter Rifle + Cannon and Rockets vs the one-time Void Mine.

But as mentioned before, having a suitable target + getting into positioning can be a gamble. More so than most are willing to risk. Even-though I think the Voidraven gives you more for your money if you compare these units in a vacuum (also costs less then a Dissi RWJF and has more wounds).


On the matter of Splinter weapons
@amishprn86 wrote:
S3 -1ap i would take over poison...... I want ALL our weapons to have some AP over us having poison, its more fluffy to me.

That wouldn't do nearly as much and especially against higher-toughness enemies with a worse save (starting at T4 4+) it starts being worse statistically.


Personally, I don't think splinter weapons need to improve in stats. They just need to be less expensive and have more synergy with other parts of our army. Splinter Racks that re-roll failed hits, 5 pts Splinter Cannons or Shardcarbines as a common special weapon. I'd also love the Archon having an active ability (like in the Purge Coterie of 7th edition), where you choose an enemy and re-roll failed  hits/wounds against this target.

They might not be a good weapon, but everything is good when you can spam enough of it. I like Splinter weapons as a form of decadence where you simply drown your enemy in crap like it was in 5th edition. Given all the weapons that already exist, I struggle to come up with anything that is new interesting, fluffy and balanced.

I dont want our infantry guns to be used on High toughness... thats literally what Blasters/Lances/Dis Cannons are for. I want to kill the 50+ different unit types that are T3 5+/6+ saves without shooting an insane amount at them.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 20:16

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I dont want our infantry guns to be used on High toughness... thats literally what Blasters/Lances/Dis Cannons are for. I want to kill the 50+ different unit types that are T3 5+/6+ saves without shooting an insane amount at them.

I'm personally a fan of S3 for Rifles and S4 for cannons and adding 1 to the wound roll against non-vehicles. Functionally identical to a Bolter against lower T, while retaining some of the sweet spot advantages on higher T. It's nothing too overpowered, given the durability of the platforms it's mounted on.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 20:59

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Personally, I don't think splinter weapons need to improve in stats. They just need to be less expensive and have more synergy with other parts of our army. Splinter Racks that re-roll failed hits, 5 pts Splinter Cannons or Shardcarbines as a common special weapon. I'd also love the Archon having an active ability (like in the Purge Coterie of 7th edition), where you choose an enemy and re-roll failed  hits/wounds against this target.

This is my feeling on splinter weaponry. We don't need a better chance to wound or higher AP, what we need are things that grant us re-rolls or modifiers.

The greatest weakness of the Dark Eldar in 8th Edition is their utter lack of synergy and that's becoming more and more visible as the Codexes get released.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 03:30

so my two cents...

On voidraven bombers, vs RWJF, I recently took two RWJF and a VRB against a friendly game of Eldar. I liked em both, honestly. Took disintigrator cannons on the jet fighters. took missiles on the bomber.... They just flew around all game doing damage. the 360 firing arc makes em dangerous...and IMO much needed with the new "cant fly off the table edge" rule.

I agree we need more synergy. We used to be able to boost up a squads poison to 3+, give a unit stealth, with characters. Reroll misses with spilinter racks. Now we're basically stuck with what we have, with no way to improve.

Splinter weapons are crap. They are pretty useless against killing guard, and pretty useless at killing marines in cover....which is basically what I have to deal with in my meta. Disintigrator cannons need a nice drop in points, considering how mandatory they are anymore...
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 03:43

Our synergy is flatly laughable. A Succubus buffing a unit of five Wyches (+1 Attack, base wargear, 17 Attacks) will allow the unit to kill an extra .30 Guardsmen. That's for 72 points.

A Troupe Master (60 Points) buffing a Troupe of 5 (Base wargear, 20 Attacks) nets an additional 2.22 Guardsmen Corpses.

In the scenario where Wyches magically get an equivalent number of attacks, the Succubus provides a paltry .36 Guardsmen.

Tangential data rant over

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 05:59

In all honesty, I think the Void Raven needs to be able to bomb once per round. Maybe only one void mine, but definitely have access to multiple types of bomb.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 07:12

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Our synergy is flatly laughable. A Succubus buffing a unit of five Wyches (+1 Attack, base wargear, 17 Attacks) will allow the unit to kill an extra .30 Guardsmen. That's for 72 points.

A Troupe Master (60 Points) buffing a Troupe of 5 (Base wargear, 20 Attacks) nets an additional 2.22 Guardsmen Corpses.

In the scenario where Wyches magically get an equivalent number of attacks, the Succubus provides a paltry .36 Guardsmen.

Tangential data rant over
I think this comparison is not really fair, not that they are not bad.
Say an equal amount of points in wyches (still is much less) but suddenly becomes 2 / 3 times as much because troupes are also depending on loadout 3 times more expensive. But this still makes the troupemaster buff 2 to 3 times more effective. And the troupemaster buff all units so is more likely to get multiple units in range.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 09:49

@|Meavar wrote:
@TheBaconPope wrote:
Our synergy is flatly laughable. A Succubus buffing a unit of five Wyches (+1 Attack, base wargear, 17 Attacks) will allow the unit to kill an extra .30 Guardsmen. That's for 72 points.

A Troupe Master (60 Points) buffing a Troupe of 5 (Base wargear, 20 Attacks) nets an additional 2.22 Guardsmen Corpses.

In the scenario where Wyches magically get an equivalent number of attacks, the Succubus provides a paltry .36 Guardsmen.

Tangential data rant over
I think this comparison is not really fair, not that they are not bad.
Say an equal amount of points in wyches (still is much less) but suddenly becomes 2 / 3 times as much because troupes are also depending on loadout 3 times more expensive. But this still makes the troupemaster buff 2 to 3 times more effective. And the troupemaster buff all units so is more likely to get multiple units in range.

If your doing base Troupe they are 16pts (15+crap blade) thats only 80pts (20 attacks), hitting on 3+, next to a Troupe Master (re-roll wounds) they wound 6.67 Guardsman's.

80pts of Wyches is only 9 models (19 attacks) hitting on 2+ (Next to a Succubus) is 5.28 wounds.

So even tho the Wyches are equal points they do less, the Troupe Master is also better than the Succubus giving the same points between them.


Lets give them weapons.

If you take Embraces on Troupe (6pts each, making the unit 105pts) Gives the Wyches a 10man unit with 2 Weapons + Agoniser, thats 102pts.

Troupes, 20attacks S4 -3ap, re-roll wounds vs Guardsman = 11.85 wounds

Wyches x7, 14 attacks, S3, vs Guardsman = 3.89
Wyches x2, x2 HG, 4attacks, S3 -1ap Re-roll wounds = 2.08
Hekatrix, x2, Agoniser vs Guardsman = 1.48
Wyches total = 7.45


Looking at the units "rules", the Harlequins IMO are still better, 4++ always vs 5++ only in combat, ignore terrain when moving/charging vs 50% chance to not fall back only against infantry (b.c they cant kill them...)

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 10:18

And then of course there is Lilith vs Solitaire...

I would like to add that our best buff, the +1 toughness boost from the Haemie, is inferior to the Shadowseer's equivalent -1 to wound nearby friendlies. Yes the Shadowseer's is limited to friendly infantry, but the Haemie's is limited to Coven units, So I do not feel it is incomparable.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 11:48

I agree that the Shadowseer is excellent and superior, but It's very different in its application, though.

The Shadowseer's aura would be totally broken in an army with access to T6 and up (because you'd have the cheese CW are now capable of with units that can only be wounded on 7+), but right now i think it's fine because every model it can affect is T3.

The Shadowseer's purpose is to make harlies wounded on 4+ instead of 3+. Haemie's purpose is to make wracks wounded on 5+ instead of 4+ (but it only works vs S4), and try to make your big things wounded on 6+.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 13:16

My problem for haemonculus is that going from T6 to T7 on pain engines is virtually worthless. T5 to T6 with Grots can make some difference, but the only thing that really benefit are wracks with T4 to T5. I've also found that keeping melee units within that 6" bubble is pretty hard to do. It always seems the happen that the wracks make their charge, haemonculus wiff, and then wracks get turned into mince meat.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 14:18

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
My  problem for haemonculus is that going from T6 to T7 on pain engines is virtually worthless. T5 to T6 with Grots can make some difference, but the only thing that really benefit are wracks with T4 to T5. I've also found that keeping melee units within that 6" bubble is pretty hard to do. It always seems the happen that the wracks make their charge, haemonculus wiff, and then wracks get turned into mince meat.

Venoms and Raiders going from T5 to T6 is the big benefit.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 16:28

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
My  problem for haemonculus is that going from T6 to T7 on pain engines is virtually worthless. T5 to T6 with Grots can make some difference, but the only thing that really benefit are wracks with T4 to T5. I've also found that keeping melee units within that 6" bubble is pretty hard to do. It always seems the happen that the wracks make their charge, haemonculus wiff, and then wracks get turned into mince meat.

Good thing wracks are the only worthwhile coven unit in the index !
Having 2 poisoned attacks, WS2+, T5, 5++, 6+++ units for 10 points reaaaally good for Index standards.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 16:56

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
My  problem for haemonculus is that going from T6 to T7 on pain engines is virtually worthless. T5 to T6 with Grots can make some difference, but the only thing that really benefit are wracks with T4 to T5. I've also found that keeping melee units within that 6" bubble is pretty hard to do. It always seems the happen that the wracks make their charge, haemonculus wiff, and then wracks get turned into mince meat.

Good thing wracks are the only worthwhile coven unit in the index !
Having 2 poisoned attacks, WS2+, T5, 5++, 6+++ units for 10 points reaaaally good for Index standards.


You're totally right - wracks are not bad at all for 11 points per (if you include the weapon). I'm a bit harsher - albeit unfairly -on them for the sole fact that I play quite a lot against orks, and ork boys are death incarnate vs everything that doesn't fly.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 17:34

Ahem, i totally missed their weapon not being free... thanks for pointing that out.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 19:49

It's strange that they pay points for their weapon in the first place. What's the purpose of having a 1 point weapon that comes stock and can only be used by 2 models?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Tue Nov 14 2017, 19:56

Quote :
It's strange that they pay points for their weapon in the first place. What's the purpose of having a 1 point weapon that comes stock and can only be used by 2 models?
They do the same for Hot-shots. Best I can figure, it's there way of discounting weapon options on a unit, i.e. by making their base cost functionally 11, they make an agonizer cost functionally 3 points.

It's a workaround they're using to reduce the cost of certain weapons on certain platforms.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Thu Nov 16 2017, 01:13

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
It's strange that they pay points for their weapon in the first place. What's the purpose of having a 1 point weapon that comes stock and can only be used by 2 models?
They do the same for Hot-shots. Best I can figure, it's there way of discounting weapon options on a unit, i.e. by making their base cost functionally 11, they make an agonizer cost functionally 3 points.

It's a workaround they're using to reduce the cost of certain weapons on certain platforms.

It actually matters since the errata/FAQ. Now all models have a generic close combat weapon included in their wargear so you actually have a choice which to replace when taking Weapons of Torture. Generally, it won't matter as most of them do everything haemonculus tools do and more, but if you skimped and got a mindphase gauntlet there would certainly be situations where you'd prefer the poison attacks.

The funny side effect of that errata is that harlequins must pay 1 point for a blade they already have!
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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Fri Nov 17 2017, 05:59

The bomber was the unit that got me started into Warhammer because of aesthetics. I have a pretty small army, so mine has never survived past turn 3. Even so, I suspect that the bias based on money is a very real factor (I got mine half-off from an inventory error).

Another issue that I've considered is that the RWJF is just more versatile and dependable. Sure, it's attacks are weaker overall, but a disintegrator's attacks are guaranteed, which gives the RWJF a lower variance vs the use of a Dark Scythe. The splinter cannon helps supplement the disintegrator and the dark lances against non-vehicle targets and gives your other units more options and support. The Void Lance on a bomber is handy when you need it, but I haven't been in any of those situations (local meta has dual cannon Wraithknight as strongest toughness, not a big threat).

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PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Fri Nov 17 2017, 07:01

When we compare the Disintegrator to the Dark Scythe, the dissie comes out as a far better choice against most heavy infantry, while not being terrible against tanks. Each Dissie averages 1 more shot than the scythe, is a good anti-infantry strength, and will never let you down by rolling a 1 for damage against the primarus marine or terminator you just shot. The Dark Scythe is potentially better, but also potentially much worse, and the platforms aren't cheap or durable enough for gambling with them to be a great move.

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