HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Chippen
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 179
Join date : 2016-12-18

PostSubject: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Thu Nov 09 2017, 21:28

Hi all,

In most of the lists I see, it's almost always Razorwing Jetfighters over Voidraven Bombers in the flyer slot.

Is there something I'm missing?

Assuming 2x Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, and best missile choice on the RWJF and 2x Dark Scythes on the Voidraven, we have, for an average wound per round of shooting comparison:

--edit for clarity--
This comparison was done with:
- Razorwing Jetfighter, 2x Dark Lance, Splinter Cannon, 170 pts
- Voidraven Bomber, 2x Dark Scythes, void mine, does not have missiles, 169 pts

GEQ - RWJF 4.33, VR 2.22
MEQ - RWJF 2.82, VR 2.22
TEQ - RWJF 2.38, VR 3.56
T7 Vehicle - RWJF 4.21, VR 3.56
T8 vehicle - RWJF 3.07, VR 2.67

Plus the void mine. Averages 6.67 mortal wounds on a squad of 10, 3.33 on a squad of 5, and 2 on vehicle/monster.

And an additional 2 wounds defensively.

Why does the RWJF seem to be the go-to choice? Basically negligible shooting difference (less than a wound on everything but GEQ), but the Voidraven has the ability to put the mine out for mortal wounds.

I would just expect to see more of the Voidraven given how close they are, but I see prettymuch exclusively RWJF. What gives?

_________________
Yo ho, yo ho, a drug-fueled BDSM space-elf pirate's life for me!
Can I get a Roll Tide?


Last edited by Chippen on Fri Nov 10 2017, 02:02; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 479
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Thu Nov 09 2017, 21:52

I have neither, but I've been looking at the RWJF over the Voidraven for one main reason; the RWJF model is almost half the price of the Voidraven.
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1388
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:05

@Burnage wrote:
I have neither, but I've been looking at the RWJF over the Voidraven for one main reason; the RWJF model is almost half the price of the Voidraven.

Very real factor.

The other factor is that the RWJF is cheaper in points while bringing comparable firepower to the table.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1844
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:19

The voidraven has 2 advantages, but pays for them.

- Some AI mortal wounds, very much needed against some armies
- S9, which is super duper useful when you go against T8 tank spam.

If you play against an army that doesn't require you to have S9 over S8, and doesn't really need AI mortal wounds then yes, the VR is an overpriced RWJF.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
The Strange Dark One
Wych
avatar

Posts : 587
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Private subrealm of the Eldritch Skies Kabal.

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:32

@Chippen wrote:
Hi all,

In most of the lists I see, it's almost always Razorwing Jetfighters over Voidraven Bombers in the flyer slot.

Is there something I'm missing?

Assuming 2x Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, and best missile choice on the RWJF and 2x Dark Scythes on the Voidraven, we have, for an average wound per round of shooting comparison:

GEQ - RWJF 4.33, VR 2.22
MEQ - RWJF 2.82, VR 2.22
TEQ - RWJF 2.38, VR 3.56
T7 Vehicle - RWJF 4.21, VR 3.56
T8 vehicle - RWJF 3.07, VR 2.67

Plus the void mine. Averages 6.67 mortal wounds on a squad of 10, 3.33 on a squad of 5, and 2 on vehicle/monster.

And an additional 2 wounds defensively.

Why does the RWJF seem to be the go-to choice? Basically negligible shooting difference (less than a wound on everything but GEQ), but the Voidraven has the ability to put the mine out for mortal wounds.

I would just expect to see more of the Voidraven given how close they are, but I see prettymuch exclusively RWJF. What gives?

Because they are two completely different units serving two completely different purposes.
The RWJF is AT, while the Voidraven is anti-heavy infantry (and superior in that regard by a magnitude).

The only thing that speaks againts the Voidraven is that it's role is not a necessary one.

_________________
Discontinued: Dark Eldar 7th Codex Redux
A pragmatic custom codex for pragmatic realspace raiders.
Back to top Go down
Chippen
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 179
Join date : 2016-12-18

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Fri Nov 10 2017, 02:13

All fair points, particularly the dolla dolla bills, y'all. To clarify, I did the comparison in the OP without missiles on the Voidraven, so the points cost is the same (170 vs 169).

Am I just overvaluing the mortal wounds in my head? I see a ton of applications where clutch removal of strong infantry units would be great, especially daemons and Genestealers with invuln saves, devastators, whatever.

_________________
Yo ho, yo ho, a drug-fueled BDSM space-elf pirate's life for me!
Can I get a Roll Tide?
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1388
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Fri Nov 10 2017, 08:22

@Chippen wrote:
All fair points, particularly the dolla dolla bills, y'all. To clarify, I did the comparison in the OP without missiles on the Voidraven, so the points cost is the same (170 vs 169).

Am I just overvaluing the mortal wounds in my head? I see a ton of applications where clutch removal of strong infantry units would be great, especially daemons and Genestealers with invuln saves, devastators, whatever.

Mortal wounds are great against high value stuff. But the thing is that Genestealers and Demons are the perfect targets for our poison weapons.

Eliminating Devastators or the like is fantastic, but a razorwing with disintegrators is still pretty effective at bringing them down.

The one use mortal wounds, to my mind, are hard to make worthwhile. They can be, such as if someone fields a 10-man TH/SS termie squad, but it can be hard to pick a suitable target.
Back to top Go down
|Meavar
Wych
avatar

Posts : 980
Join date : 2017-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Fri Nov 10 2017, 10:26

The voidraven is slightly more expensive which for me also is a real factor.

The voidraven bomb sounds good, but I found that moving it to the right place often leads it to being badly deployed (might also be me because I am not that experienced).
Also the damage difference is quite big, if you do not shoot 1 target. shooting at just meq is only a 27% increase, or a 18% against tanks.
But now compare 2 rounds of shooting, going missle and rifle vs meq and lances vs tanks.
RJF: 6.22 vs tanks and 2.96 MEQ
VR: 3.55 vs tanks and 2.22 MEQ
Suddenly the RJF looks much better.
Which means that depending on what you target with the mine it often comes down to what you meat, do you see much t8 or t4 with 2 wounds then the VR pulls ahead (but against t4 multiwound the disintegrators actually prove even more formidable), do you see a lot of t5-7 (or bad saves) then the RJF usually pulls ahead.
Usually I find that the razorwing deals slightly more damage, and the major reason that brings the  voidbomber on equal footing is the bomb.
Back to top Go down
lament.config
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 440
Join date : 2015-04-20

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 09:02

The voidraven hangover from 7th.

The model got released with underwhelming stats. It almost cost in real money what a LoW would run. It got a buff in 8th but, not enough of one to counter the entry fee.

I can't lie and say that didn't pick one up after the buff. It tends to get solo'd out though as it's the only one I own.
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1388
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 09:13

I picked up 2 razorwing jetfighters back when they first came out. I preordered them! I never leave home without them, for edition after edition. It has had its peaks and valleys (back in 7th they were one of our two AA options, and they alpha striked like a mofo thanks to their opening missile barrage), but on the whole I have never regretted having them in a list.
Back to top Go down
hekatrixxy
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 202
Join date : 2016-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 09:28

I managed to pick up my Voidraven on ebay for £28 brand new in box, which is basically the same as the RWJF is brand new from GW. It is worth noting that the Voidraven is not direct only, so you can find 3rd party sellers with up to 25% off the GW price, making it a bit more palatable.

_________________
I danced with Fate, she said it could go either way.
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2901
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 15:31

I hate the RWJF's it never does any thing as good as my Bomber's, my Bombers always out preform every game.... for 14pts it does dbl the wounds... so its well worth it for me.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
LordSplata
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 248
Join date : 2017-06-14
Location : Sydney

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 05:58

I don't own a void raven, but wish I did.

In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

I have two RWJFs, lovely models, but I'm not convinced they are better than my ravagers.
They perform a slightly different role (I'm not afraid to suicide a rwjf to kill a character), and they are have a more diverse armoury which is handy, but requires multiple targets to get the best value from. And multi targets splits your fire and doesn't wipe out one target, for more retaliatory fire, so that is also a balance.

It in the end I take them for the model and diversity along with ravagers.
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 479
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 08:47

@LordSplata wrote:
In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

The Dark City as a whole seems very down on Splinter Cannons, but I think they're fine options when mounted on vehicles. I'd never take them on Scourges, though.
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2901
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 09:21

@Burnage wrote:
@LordSplata wrote:
In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

The Dark City as a whole seems very down on Splinter Cannons, but I think they're fine options when mounted on vehicles. I'd never take them on Scourges, though.

Not thedarkcity, only about 1/2, i personally hate all poison and wish i could just have bolters....

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1388
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 11:00

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@LordSplata wrote:
In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

The Dark City as a whole seems very down on Splinter Cannons, but I think they're fine options when mounted on vehicles. I'd never take them on Scourges, though.

Not thedarkcity, only about 1/2, i personally hate all poison and wish i could just have bolters....

I remember when rifles were S 3 AP 5, and Cannons were S 4 AP 5 Assault 4.
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2901
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 11:27

S3 -1ap i would take over poison...... I want ALL our weapons to have some AP over us having poison, its more fluffy to me.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7075
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 11:34

@amishprn86 wrote:
S3 -1ap i would take over poison...... I want ALL our weapons to have some AP over us having poison, its more fluffy to me.

I'd take poison with a -1AP. Statistically it's pretty much the same as +1S against T3 stuff and obviously helps out against pretty much everyone else too.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1388
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 12:18

I want poison, but reroll failed wounds against infantry (or at least against T 3 or less)
Back to top Go down
Skulnbonz
Wych
avatar

Posts : 653
Join date : 2012-07-13
Location : Tampa

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 13:10

A Jetfighter is the same cost as a ravager (no splinter cannon nonsense)

It has better movement, -1 to be hit, and the missles make up for the loss of one of the three dark lances. They also throw a twin splinter cannon (4 shots within 12", 2 otherwise) for fun. The RWJF is hands down better than the voidraven just because of the split fire rules letting the missles, rifle and lances all target the choicest units. the voidraven makes you fly out of position to utilize its bomb, and has 2 lance weapons. Not ideal.

If the voidraven drops 40 points or so with the new book, people MAY start taking them more.

_________________
ATTITUDE: It is the difference between an ORDEAL and an ADVENTURE!
Back to top Go down
http://www.fantasybattles.com
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1844
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 14:21

The missiles and the TWSRifle don't accomplish as much as a DL/dissie. But it is indeed faster and hard to hit.

But you don't play the VR for the voidlane, you play it for the 2d3 blaster shots, which is a very fun anti-elite tool. Combine that with the voidmine, and you're looking at a pretty solid TEQ counterpick. The problem, of course, is that Termies aren't that popular to begin with.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2901
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 14:57

@Mppqlmd wrote:
The missiles and the TWSRifle don't accomplish as much as a DL/dissie. But it is indeed faster and hard to hit.

But you don't play the VR for the voidlane, you play it for the 2d3 blaster shots, which is a very fun anti-elite tool. Combine that with the voidmine, and you're looking at a pretty solid TEQ counterpick. The problem, of course, is that Termies aren't that popular to begin with.

Primaris Interceptors (spelling) and DG will be INSANELY popular now, those Interceptors are 1/2 the cost now (cheaper with the Heavy Bolters i think too) get ready for spamming of them.

Oh, ps with White Scars they can shoot, charge, fall back, shoot, charge, Plasma is Assault, making them even more scary.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
TheBaconPope
Wych
avatar

Posts : 618
Join date : 2017-03-10

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 17:15

Quote :
Primaris Interceptors (spelling) and DG will be INSANELY popular now, those Interceptors are 1/2 the cost now (cheaper with the Heavy Bolters i think too) get ready for spamming of them.

Oh, ps with White Scars they can shoot, charge, fall back, shoot, charge, Plasma is Assault, making them even more scary.

Oh that's terrifying. Where'd you get that information, I'd love to have a look at it

_________________
"Death solves all problems. No man, no problem."
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2901
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 19:13

Sneak peak at the Chapter Approve, dont have link atm.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Kantalla
Wych
avatar

Posts : 725
Join date : 2015-12-21

PostSubject: Re: Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?   Mon Nov 13 2017, 19:49

I have a Voidraven mostly for the aesthetic, but it does well at times too. It was probably my first star in three of the five tournament games I played over the weekend.

First game it bombed a unit of Plague Marines mostly out of existence, then overwatched 4 wounds off a Daemon Prince, before helping finish off all the Plague Marines and surviving the game.

Second game a 10 strong unit of Death Company tried to deep strike in and assault it. They missed, but the Void Mine didn't miss, and the Dark Scythes then finished off a Vindicator.

Next two games were OK, but didn't do anything spectacular, before in the final game, a unit of 8 Ravenguard Veterans with Lightning Claws chose to deep strike in front of it, made the charge, but didn't kill the Voidraven. With one command re-roll, there were no Veterans left for my psychic or shooting phase.

I just want the second Void Mine statagem in the Codex Very Happy

_________________
From a midnight sky, there is a searing flash, a boom, a brief moment of destruction, and then it is gone.
Kabal of Lightning Strikes - Project Log
Drukhari damage output analysis
Back to top Go down
 
Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 3Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: