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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 03:02

So I’ve never lost so many games as I have this edition.
And it’s not just one army I lose to. IG, nids, marines, death guard, tau (commander spam) Plus more. In 7th I was doing very well, even in tournaments I was winning 2/3, 4/5 matches. Now I keep getting reliably tabled.
My lists typically include these: 3 ravagers, 2-3 razorwings, 6 venoms with warriors and a blaster. 2 archons to fill hq, mandrakes/scourge to fill in the gaps. Any advice would be helpful. How is everyone else fairing at this point? I’m ready to hang it up til our codex drops and be further disappointed with more nerfs lol
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 03:24

I had success earlier in the edition, but I'm facing increasing difficulties. Really, I'm waiting out for our codex at this point, save the occasional casual game.

The problem stems simply from the fact that a mid-tier index doesn't hold much water against codex armies, which, Tau excluded (Even then, you're playing a top tier index list), is exclusively what you're facing.

As far as list goes, I don't see any problems that are glaring, so that's not the issue.

As far as generic advice goes, make sure that you're playing both missions and tables that suit your needs. Avoid setting up your table with clear avenues of fire, make use of fly and LOS blockers.
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 03:37

I’ve been playing DE for 5 years now, I pull out all the typical tactics and I always utilize LOS blocking and cover as much as DE should, even been screening as we need this a lot now. But we are slower, more fragile, more expensive, and hit with as much force as a crumpled piece of paper.
I miss my grotesquerie and medusae bomb infantry erasers
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 04:02

What elements of the opposing lists are doing the most damage to you?
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 04:14

Depends on the army I face. So tau 8 commanders with max missile pods. Nids are 3 flying hive tyrants smacking my planes out of the sky and blistering speed of their foot sloggers. Astra militarum with their shooting twice and out ranging everything.
Admech with the forge world robots, dune crawlers and (whatever the other walker with twin las cannons are) combined with stratagems boosting their bs, re rolls, and their ability to repair everything.
Death guard and the monstrosity that is mortarion. Haven’t played against the new chaos marines not named death guard but I hear they are top notch so I wouldn’t hold my breath. I am easily losing 3-4 vehicles a turn, might as well pack it up if you don’t get first turn.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 04:25

Tbh I actually have a very good win to loss ratio this edition. Not as good as last edition, but still not bad. I have regular opponents who run heavy multi wound marine lists for both normal and chaos, and my Darkklight spam list is a near perfect counter. Still bored with it as spamming one weapon at the exclusion of all else is really dull.
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 04:39

I started out winning almost every game this edition but now I’m on a 10+ losing streak and it’s very discouraging.
Also things seem to be trending on the points reducing and increasing toughness of models. Dissie cannons which I love(d) are not doing as much as they should. Also everyone knows to take them out first so I’m usually down to 1 ravager by the start of my first turn or they’re hitting on 4’s or 5’s (even more fun with -1 modifiers are becoming more common, looking at you nids, raven guard, and cwe)
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 05:25

It sounds like you are running quite a shooting oriented army. How far away from the opposition are you deploying? For instance, against the flyrants, It sounds like you must be deploying quite close to the opposition, within 40" away?

What kind of screen to stop deep striking are you using?

What types of missions are you playing? And are you playing first to finish deployment goes first or just the +1 on the roll off (I've been playing the +1 rules and enjoying it much more)
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 08:44

Against the flyrants it was dawn of war and I had first turn. Did hardly any damage and I was within 25”. Which I won’t be making that choice again. I play itc missions every time and do the +1 to roll for first turn. I have a little hope now with the new champions missions. I use the 20-25 warriors and just leave the venoms empty if a screen is needed
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 15:52

Warseer had an article awhile back (I can PM you the link if needed) where a university professor did an experiment with dice showing that the cheaper ones rolled 1's an average of ~25% of the time, while Vegas Dice were much closer to 16.6%

Its a chance based game(ITS NOT GAMBLING), List building tries to give you the best odds but in reality its a craps shoot. Don't stress yourself out too much. Try to learn something new from every game.

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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 16:10

I’m familiar with that paper. Time to buy some Vegas craps dice
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Wed Nov 08 2017, 20:34

If you could post a link that'd be great I'd love to have a read. Might test my own dice.

I find 25%too large to be believed...
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Deekay
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Thu Nov 09 2017, 00:34

What is the weapon makeup of your typical list? (How many dark lances/dissies/blasters etc
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Thu Nov 09 2017, 03:36

7 blasters, 12 dark lances, 9 dissies
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Thu Nov 09 2017, 09:50

@LordSplata wrote:
If you could post a link that'd be great I'd love to have a read. Might test my own dice.

I find 25%too large to be believed...

Here. The cheaper dice actually rolled 1 29% of the time, which is pretty awful!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Thu Nov 09 2017, 09:58

LOL. I guess the question is whether you're prepared to pay $3/dice to get fewer 1s? With the amount I roll, I think I might actually do it!

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Thu Nov 09 2017, 12:26

After reading that, I'm going to find some square nonpip dice for myself. Geez.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Fri Nov 10 2017, 00:06

@LordSplata wrote:
It sounds like you are running quite a shooting oriented army. How far away from the opposition are you deploying? For instance, against the flyrants, It sounds like you must be deploying quite close to the opposition, within 40" away?

What kind of screen to stop deep striking are you using?
...

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
...I play itc missions every time and do the +1 to roll for first turn. I have a little hope now with the new champions missions. I use the 20-25 warriors and just leave the venoms empty if a screen is needed

@Deekay wrote:
What is the weapon makeup of your typical list? (How many dark lances/dissies/blasters etc

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
7 blasters, 12 dark lances, 9 dissies

I think, more than ever, Drukhari need a close combat presence to change the pace of the game, and control the board.

I get the appeal of warrior, venom, and ravager spam from a pure points/dice-efficiency standpoint, but I find that in those builds, you're racing against whatever they're shooting capabilities or CC inevitably is. Often you'll find yourself boxed in and surrounded hoping you can shoot them up faster than they can shoot you. And as you say, other armies are becoming more efficient at it, so it's becoming more of a vain hope.

With some legitimate CC threats of your own, you can take some of that board control back. Tie up those imperial guard tanks while you lance others down. Saturate blobs with your venoms, and then again with a squad of beasts or incubi in close combat. You can pop them much faster if you deliver wounds in two phases, or at least pin them down while your vehicles keep scooting.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Fri Nov 10 2017, 00:18

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but I really question whether we've actually got any legitimate CC threats currently. Every melee-oriented unit I can think of is likely to either get shot off the board easily or lose in close combat anyways.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Fri Nov 10 2017, 00:30

Quote :
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but I really question whether we've actually got any legitimate CC threats currently

I'd say that Clawed Fiends can shrug off enough to make it to where they're going, Khymera are cheap enough to be reasonable T4 chaff, and Razorwings are good bullet sponges.

Else, Incubi in Venoms will be decent if you can get them into some MEQs.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Fri Nov 10 2017, 00:53

@Burnage wrote:
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but I really question whether we've actually got any legitimate CC threats currently. Every melee-oriented unit I can think of is likely to either get shot off the board easily or lose in close combat anyways.

If they're putting shots into CC threats, then they're not focusing on the meat and potatoes of your list. Nobody wants to shoot at the beasts. But if they don't, then they won't be shooting at all next turn. That leaves scourges, raiders, or whatever else to conduct their mayhem unmolested.
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Fri Nov 10 2017, 07:25

I do love my clawed fiends. The other day I played them in a casual game and the got in to a squad of terminators. (With beast master close) they took at the squad it was glorious. Needless to say they didn’t survive another turn after he saw their potential. But in competitive games they just don’t seem to make it and it feels wasted. It’s a shame cuz those and grots are my favorite two units
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Mon Nov 13 2017, 01:59

Actually, I find problems in your list. In this edition, both Venoms and RWJFs are inferior to Raiders and Ravagers. First reason, tying up shooting units and tanks: Venoms are too fragile and RWJF are uncapable. Second reason, lances are almost mandatory now, so spending points in venoms or flyer platforms is not efficient, gunboats are better IMHO. Third, poison wounds vehicles on 6+, regardless of T, so bring lances, again, not splinter cannons or dual rifles. Fourth, did I mention lances?

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Mon Nov 13 2017, 02:07

Quote :
Actually, I find problems in your list. In this edition, both Venoms and RWJFs are inferior to Raiders and Ravagers. First reason, tying up shooting units and tanks: Venoms are too fragile and RWJF are uncapable. Second reason, lances are almost mandatory now, so spending points in venoms or flyer platforms is not efficient, gunboats are better IMHO. Third, poison wounds vehicles on 6+, regardless of T, so bring lances, again, not splinter cannons or dual rifles. Fourth, did I mention lances?

There are several things to consider here. I'll admit, I'm not familiar with Death Guard, but considering they're Nurgle's boys, I'd say they have T5 infantry in scores. That still seems to be a place where Poison can be an effective counter. Second, this might be a TAC list, and Lances and Dissies are hardly an effective counter to infantry, while the RWJF remains potent against a multitude of targets. Third, as a bit of an extension of that, none of the armies listed in his meta are primarily armor based, with maybe the exception of maybe IG. Finally, don't underestimate the -1 to hit against armies like Guard. It's a pain for mechanized lists to deal with.

I don't know his exact list, but it's certainly solid enough, far too much so to justify his record.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Frustrated archon   Mon Nov 13 2017, 04:19

Lawrence backs up venoms. I think that people dont consider Standard deviation when they calculate odds of wounding. the -1 can really help exploit bad rolls. Its not exactly mathhammer, but this edition isnt about armchair tactica.

I really think youd benefit from some beasts. I dont use clawed fiends but the other two are cheap, fun and effective

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