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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Tue Nov 07 2017, 23:14

So, back in the day all our vehicles could deep strike. It was awesome. These days, we have lost that opportunity, for now.

So here is what I am hoping: I am hoping we get a stratagem. We can spend 1 CP to put any one unit with the Fly keyword into deep strike reserve. More points = more deep striking.

What do you guys think? Reasonable request, or too OP?

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Tue Nov 07 2017, 23:44

I figure we will get an expanded Cloudstrike and Webway Strike and/or have a <Kabal> that can ignore deep strike/reserve restrictions.

I don't think 1CP to deep strike a unit with Fly is broken but it would be strong enough to potentially kill a lot of tactical diversity.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 02:40

I'd much rather it be a vehicle upgrade. At least in most of my games, I need every single command point that I can fit in a list, and I'd much rather pay an extra 50-60 points than give up half of them.

But considering that in theory we should be the second/third best DS army (Next to Daemons and Genestealer Cults) I'd hardly call it unreasonable
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 03:56

Honestly, I think I care less about our ability to deep strike than our ability to keep the enemy further than 9" away from us at the end of turn one. There are way too many armies with viable ways of closing the distance very, very quickly in 8th edition.

There is certainly a lot of merit to deep striking, but I agree with TheBaconPope, I would really like to see some fundamental upgrades to our transports.

As an aside...I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that our transports get Deep Strike as a standard ability, but I may prefer to see our transports get boosts in other regards.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 04:10

Yeah I was thinking about this just the other day and I realized I never liked Dark Eldar because they were fast, I liked them because they were maneuverable. Sure, I'd love a Deep-Strike stratagem, but I would love one even more that let a unit of Reavers, Venom, Raider, or Ravager advance 24" or 36". Keep it just 1 CP. I would also love love love a stock ability for embarked units to disembark after their transport moves, and for that to count as their movement. I'd even be willing to pay up to 20 points per transport as an upgrade.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 05:09

Having something as simple as aunit moves faster for a turn seems like an waste of a command point. When is it you need an army to redloy or out flank an opponent but it can be done with just one unit?
You need the army to be able to do that. If it were a stratagem rather than an upgrade I would say it should effect all the units in one hit, or maybe make it a multi pointer allowing for one unit at 1 or multiple at 2.
But really it sounds like a standard ability for bikes and venoms or upgrade for things like ravagers

On disembark assault, for 115 points I think we've paid enough, but counting as their movement is perfectly legitimate.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 06:27

Strategem: Rapid Redeploy.

CP cost: 2

Use: Friendly movement phase.

Effect: One or more Dark Eldar units with the Fly keyword in the army may choose to move and advance twice this movement phase. Any unit that takes advantage of this may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase or charge in the subsequent charge phase.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 06:32

Quote :
Strategem: Rapid Redeploy.

CP cost: 2

Use: Friendly movement phase.

Effect: One or more Dark Eldar units with the Fly keyword in the army may choose to move and advance twice this movement phase. Any unit that takes advantage of this may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase or charge in the subsequent charge phase.

I'm not really convinced that's worth 2CPs.

Especially since IG get it as an order for their tanks

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 07:45

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
Strategem: Rapid Redeploy.

CP cost: 2

Use: Friendly movement phase.

Effect: One or more Dark Eldar units with the Fly keyword in the army may choose to move and advance twice this movement phase. Any unit that takes advantage of this may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase or charge in the subsequent charge phase.

I'm not really convinced that's worth 2CPs.

Especially since IG get it as an order for their tanks

Fair assessment. Maybe just have it as a quality for Dark Eldar Vehicles, because we are "Blisteringly Fast" (I think that will be a meme for a long time...)

Also, unrelated but curious: Why do Craftworld fliers have 2 90 degree pivots per turn but we only get one? Are our fliers less maneuverable? are our pilots less used to flying around and between spires? This has bugged me for several editions.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 09:13

Given the restrictions on no more than 50% of your army in reserve, I don't see that just giving all our vehicles Deep Strike as standard would be especially OP. Maybe have it as a vehicle upgrade but certainly not as a stratagem.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 18:58

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Given the restrictions on no more than 50% of your army in reserve, I don't see that just giving all our vehicles Deep Strike as standard would be especially OP. Maybe have it as a vehicle upgrade but certainly not as a stratagem.

Unless they allow us to break the 50% rule in some way, as an army-wide trait.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 19:19

Quote :
Unless they allow us to break the 50% rule in some way, as an army-wide trait.

I could see us getting a Strategem like this. Something like,
3CP Raiders From Orbit: Use this Strategem during deployment. During matched play, you may keep up to three quarters of your force in reserve.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 19:24

Would we actually want to use a Strategem that lets us break the 50% cap? It just sounds like an invitation for your opponent to table the part of your army that is on the board in their first turn and instantly win.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 19:51

@Burnage wrote:
Would we actually want to use a Strategem that lets us break the 50% cap? It just sounds like an invitation for your opponent to table the part of your army that is on the board in their first turn and instantly win.

Having the possibility to do so doesn't imply you have to. Options are always nice, it's our own fault if we misplay those options.

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 20:30

In 4th I used to play a web Way army where I started the game with an archon an a haemonculus on the board and everything else in the webway.
If I lost both those units before they deployed their webways on turn 2 then I lost the game right then and there. Very much a game of cat and mouse around Los blocking terrain

Deep striking raiders really isn't broken on the outset. How is it any different to assault terminators or any other DSing unit that can fight as its primary damage method? Other armies have proven this isn't OP. Even if our army deep struck on raiders and could disembark that turn and then charge so long as they were more than 9" away from the enemy, it then it still wouldn't be broken.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 20:35

Quote :
Other armies have proven this isn't OP.

Well, Khorne Bezerkers that can DS 9," move 6," then have a 97% chance of a successful charge might straddle that line a little, but aside from that one exception, DS is hardly overpowered.

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 21:56

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
Other armies have proven this isn't OP.

Well, Khorne Bezerkers that can DS 9," move 6," then have a 97% chance of a successful charge might straddle that line a little, but aside from that one exception, DS is hardly overpowered.

To be fair, that is infiltration rather than deep striking. Minor difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 22:23

Huge difference. You infiltrate at the end of deployement, and you don't know if you'll have first turn. If you don't... well, those bezerkers are dead. So it kinda is a big gamble to deploy them that close.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Wed Nov 08 2017, 22:46

Quote :
Huge difference. You infiltrate at the end of deployement, and you don't know if you'll have first turn. If you don't... well, those bezerkers are dead. So it kinda is a big gamble to deploy them that close.

The exact wording is "At the Beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins." Meaning that the controlling player will know if they will be going first or not. Admittedly, you're still spending a command point regardless, but you're perfectly able to deploy the unit somewhere safer, should you know that you're going second.

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Deekay
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Thu Nov 09 2017, 00:30

Does seize happen before or after you place that unit down?
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Thu Nov 09 2017, 01:22

@Deekay wrote:
Does seize happen before or after you place that unit down?

After. In the majority of circumstances, you go back-and-forth setting your units down; whoever finishes setting their models down first gets to go first unless, of course, the opponent seizes the initiative.

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Thu Nov 09 2017, 13:37

Actually seize happens before the bezerkers get placed.

Seize is part of mission set up and deployment. It happens before the first battle round at the end of deployment. But before the bezerkers have set up. So the bezerker player will know whether you have seized before the bezerkers get set up.

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Thu Nov 09 2017, 13:53

Half the time things like nurglings which infiltrate during deployment are even worse, since they stop others from infiltrating after deployment. And infliltration for melee units is always good.

Which leaves 2 options.

You deploy them somewhere close enough that with a move and a charge they can reach the enemy but stay mostly out of sight or in cover.

A) there is some line of sight blocking terrain and you get the best of both worlds
B) you are in a similar situation as normal but still have the option to deploy forward if you have lots of other fast units for turn 1 assaults, since he cannot kill everything. Still giving more board control and even forcing your enemy into decisions, instead of shooting whomever he likes.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Vehicles.   Thu Nov 09 2017, 17:08

@TheBaconPope wrote:


The exact wording is "At the Beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins." Meaning that the controlling player will know if they will be going first or not. Admittedly, you're still spending a command point regardless, but you're perfectly able to deploy the unit somewhere safer, should you know that you're going second.

My bad.

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