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 Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 15:04

I recently watched a Tabletop Tactics battle report between Space Marines and Tyranids (with new codex rules) and came to a conclusion: I believe the Tyranids are a closer foil to our Dark Eldar than Craftworld Eldar are.

Dark Eldar are a race predicated upon physical prowess, speed, and a blend of formidable melee and ranged attack (with a lean toward ranged attack). With the release of the indexes earlier this year, Games-Workshop leaned heavily on improving our firepower, and maneuverability; they also clearly made an attempt to improve our melee ability, which I think can be seen with the inclusion of our wych abilities to attempt to keep units stuck in combat as well as their 4++ in melee.

Tyranids are a race predicated upon physical prowess, speed, and a blend of formidable melee and ranged attack (with a lean toward melee attack). With the release of the indexes earlier this year, Games-workshop leaned heavily on improving speed, melee ability. Admittedly, Tyranids have psychic abilities as well, but that holds true for every army besides our own; however, I feel their psychic phase may be somewhat diluted compared to other, more psychic-heavy armies (comparatively speaking).

I believe if you look at these two armies on a spectrum with one extreme being "ranged-focused" and the other being "melee-focused", these two armies fall closely in line on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Why does this - potentially - matter?
While I was watching the battle report, I was slipping further into a depression knowing the individual I play again most often uses Tyranids and their codex looks SPECTACULAR. However, as I began drawing the conclusion above, the more optimistic I became that GW might simply pull us close to my hypothetical median from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Realistically speaking, I think the changes made in one codex are only indicative of the changes pertaining to that codex...but I'm going to hold faith that it may have implications for our army!

Apologies for grammar/spelling errors...I'm rushing out the door!
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 15:28

That's a fair assessment, however, I think that Tyranids are more focused on speedy infantry, and DE on speedy vehicles and unrivalled prowess in combat. As far as playstyle is concerned, I would say that DE are a mix of Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, with some Eldar stats thrown in


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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 15:38

To be perfectly honest, I haven't seen the battle report and should definitely watch it to get an idea of what you are talking about, but my little brother has been playing tyranids since the end of 5th and he decided to go with a heavy shooty list as opposed to the heavy melee list every one else goes with so my point of view is slightly different ... And the only thing I could think of looking at the new stuff for tyranids is "their shooting has just become more insane" assault 6 on standard troops ... To be honest I can see tyranid having two major lists now, an all assault with some tanged support or an all shooting lost with some melee support ... And I'll tell you which one scares me more ... The shooting list ... Melee is easy enough for us to stay away from for a couple turns (baring, of course the flyrant) .... The shooting ... less easy to avoid ... With their speed they could easily match our range ... And they put out more damage ... Honestly ... I'm looking forward to playing against him with his codex because I will definitely have to come up with out of the box strategies if I want to stand a chance at winning, it'll be a really fun challenge.
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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 15:57

I would argue dark eldar lean towards melee attack, our power from pain does, our melee options are larger than ranged, and coven and cult are well and truly sunk into melee. It's just gw hasn't given us decent enough stats to use the units. We are meant to be a force which swarms with melee, and takes down armour with darklight, but in order to be competitive we are forced to play with one out of our three troops and ignore 2/3 of our index.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 17:15

@Britishgrotesque wrote:
I would argue dark eldar lean towards melee attack, our power from pain does, our melee options are larger than ranged, and coven and cult are well and truly sunk into melee. It's just gw hasn't given us decent enough stats to use the units. We are meant to be a force which swarms with melee, and takes down armour with darklight, but in order to be competitive we are forced to play with one out of our three troops and ignore 2/3 of our index.

Yeah, it's clear from our Index that we're intended to be a melee-heavy army. We're just... not very good at it currently.
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 17:34

@Burnage wrote:
@Britishgrotesque wrote:
I would argue dark eldar lean towards melee attack, our power from pain does, our melee options are larger than ranged, and coven and cult are well and truly sunk into melee. It's just gw hasn't given us decent enough stats to use the units. We are meant to be a force which swarms with melee, and takes down armour with darklight, but in order to be competitive we are forced to play with one out of our three troops and ignore 2/3 of our index.

Yeah, it's clear from our Index that we're intended to be a melee-heavy army. We're just... not very good at it currently.

That's a point that actually gives me hope. I also get the impression that we are suppose to be an army capable of being melee-heavy and we simply aren't, which would suggest we should see significant adjustments in that phase of the game.

Obviously this is all conjecture, but my hopes are higher than they have been in a while.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 17:54

Honestly I would LOVE to get our melee back online, with my 40 Wyches and all that. I want to play Wych cults, with Kabalite support. Not the other way around.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 18:15

I oppose the notion that we are intended to be a melee army, I think very much that our codex is supposed to feature melee and ranged alike.

Apart from some historical exceptions, ranged weapons were always the corner stone of our army. We used to be able to spam poison, now we can amass Lances for great AT potential. Together, they can counter a reasonable range of units still.

But even when amassed, there are many targets that they cannot kill efficiently. We lack the ability to spam flamers, melta weapons or other widespread types of weapons. Instead, we got a range of very different melee units that (almost) all have a roll to fill.

The sad part is that most of them aren't particularly good and our transports cost too much for too little benefit (Open topped). Still, conceptually we'd have the tools to counter essentially everything.

T6 Grotesques as anti-horde and Incubi as anti-elite. Wyches could serve as a swiss army knife and Hellions are for anti-bike/walker. Reavers are potential character assassins and then there are beasts.

Reavers and Grotesques showed how awesome DE melee can be in 7th edition, but most lists still had lots of ranged dakka. Why not embrace the asymmetry?

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 19:06

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I oppose the notion that we are intended to be a melee army, I think very much that our codex is supposed to feature melee and ranged alike.

Apart from some historical exceptions, ranged weapons were always the corner stone of our army. We used to be able to spam poison, now we can amass Lances for great AT potential. Together, they can counter a reasonable range of units still.

But even when amassed, there are many targets that they cannot kill efficiently. We lack the ability to spam flamers, melta weapons or other widespread types of weapons. Instead, we got a range of very different melee units that (almost) all have a roll to fill.

The sad part is that most of them aren't particularly good and our transports cost too much for too little benefit (Open topped). Still, conceptually we'd have the tools to counter essentially everything.

T6 Grotesques as anti-horde and Incubi as anti-elite. Wyches could serve as a swiss army knife and Hellions are for anti-bike/walker. Reavers are potential character assassins and then there are beasts.

Reavers and Grotesques showed how awesome DE melee can be in 7th edition, but most lists still had lots of ranged dakka. Why not embrace the asymmetry?

I absolutely hear you. For my part, I simply said we are an army that should be capable of being melee-heavy. That is the beauty of our lore and the division of our army. Kabal aims to be mobile and ranged, cults aim to be agile and close combat, coven aims to take punishment and give some back in kind. Which might be the best way to describe my Dark Eldar/Tyranid foil...it feels similar.

Our sub-par weaponry for T3 troop choices is a sticking point for me. Additionally, Incubi not having an invulnerable save seems like a mistake as well. I don't think it is too much to assume they should have at least a 5+ invulnerable. 3+ 5++ 6+++.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 19:57

I think that our army has real potential to be ranged and melee.

I figure out beasts are our vanguard, cheap 4 wound flocks and khymera with 5++ to draw in fire all the while our boats are weakening infantry for later charges and ripping open transports

This edition is especially deadly, most games are decided by turn 3. That’s when we get our +1 to hit. I think that’s when we strike. We want our non PFP units to do the heavy lifting turns 1 and 2 and deal the killing blow turn 3. Think about it, we get to re roll charge by turn 2, nids need to take a specific hive fleet for that privelage

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 20:14

@RedRegicide wrote:
...This edition is especially deadly, most games are decided by turn 3.

The little factoid is actually why I am not a fan of our PFP ability in 8th edition. We are suppose to progressively get stronger as the game goes along, but if most games are decided in the first 2 or 3 turns, what's the benefit of having an ability that doesn't pop until turn 4 or 5?
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Mon 6 Nov - 20:35

I don’t think turn 4 or 5 are particularly good powers. The 6+++, re roll advance and charge, and +1 to hit are all good enough to be a faction bonus on their own, I don’t even know the others off the top of my head except that they are similar to fearless and leadership shenanigans

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 0:58

I want to have a melee focus with range support, a range focus with melee support, or a mix of both all being viable. So I can run my Wych cult.

At present our melee takes up 2/3rds of our index and is a joke.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 2:17

@FuelDrop wrote:
I want to have a melee focus with range support, a range focus with melee support, or a mix of both all being viable. So I can run my Wych cult.

At present our melee takes up 2/3rds of our index and is a joke.

This, most of our ranged units are decently priced (except some special weapons, which could do with a price reduction/ different rules)
Our melee troops are sometimes to expensive but we also have some reasonable options (khymera/incubi are reasonable, wych cult units are to expensive).
Our transport vehicles for our ranged options are quite nice and in my mind don't need a real price reduction. But our melee units look worse by comparison because the 2 reasons for the price are speed (which stays usefull) and open topped (which is useless for melee units).
Which is why I really liked the suggestion of someone here to make the transports different for the different factions. That also means that from a powerpoint vieuwpoint we do not just take coven transports for the bonus thoughness no matter what we want to put inside.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 2:56

I hate being the most inventively cruel army in the galaxy and being stuck with 3 weapon options: Poison, Darklight, and Disintegration.

Even if all our options were viable we have very little variety, which has always bugged me given that our army is supposed to be all about cruelty, we have a painfully small arsenal from which to choose compared to almost any of the other major factions. Necrons are the exception as they are machines of pure logic, uncaring about inflicting cruelty: they have Gauss for anti armour, Tesla for anti-horde, and anything else is just a special weapon for a specialized unit. But they are more or less the exception.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 4:10

I disagree we have very little, we have quite a lot actually, only most are not viable, or on units that don't want it. We have few different heavy weapon options, but our infantry special weapon options are actually quite a lot. Only having overpriced weapons, heavy weapons in melee units and guns which are just plain useless for their intended role makes it look like we have very few options. But of those 12 special/heavy options I know I only use 2 or 3, because they are so much better then the other options.

1) Hexrifle
2) stinger pistol
3) liquifier gun
4) blast pistol
5) blaster
6) darklance
7) haywire blaster
Cool heat lance
9) phantasm grenade launcher
10) shredder
11) splinter cannon
12) ossefactor
basic weaponry
1) splinter pistol
2) splinter rifle
3) splinter pods
4) splinter carbine
5) baleblast
6) eyeburst
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 4:18

That's pretty much exactly what @FuelDrop was saying. No matter how many different weapons we might have, only 3 are actually viable (and I'd argue that poison is more of a liability than a benefit these days) and therefore the others may as well not exist.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 4:32

Blast Pistol, Blaster, Darklance, and Heat Lance are all Darklight or derivatives.

Hexrifle, stinger pistol are both limited to one HQ option and one unit leader that otherwise specializes exclusively in melee.

Liquifier gun is... actually quite widespread, but only in the Covens which I don't play so I have a tenancy to overlook it unfairly. Still, ranged weapon in melee-exclusive squads, and a weapon that does poorly at its intended role (it's a flamer style infantry killer with a low ST and random AP. Very Random in both number of shots and effectiveness against armour, while also being at best mediocre at wounding even light infantry)

Haywire blaster is exclusive to a single unit to the point that it would be their signature gear, were it not for how crap it is.

Ossefactor is available to a single, melee exclusive unit, in very small numbers.

So Haywire Blaster and Ossefactor are not special weapons in the general sense as they are only available to one unit in the army. Hexrifles are not special weapons in the general sense either as they are HQ/Squad Leader only, rather than something available to special weapon troopers or the like.

That leaves Darklight and the Liquifier as your general use special weapons.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 5:37

Let's agree that the options we have right now are bad.

But I disagree that we need more special weapons, just that the ones we have are viable. As you mentioned 5 options are unusable right now (and 2 more the heat lance and shredder were forgotten by you)

But most races only have a few special weapons
flamer: liquifier
plasma: blaster
melta: heat lance (this is not darklight based, and also has different stats as the other darklight weapons)
grenade launcher??:  shredder
sniper rifle: ??

specialists:
haywire, ossefactor versus hot shot volley gun


That is roughly similar in number for guard and us. The major problem is that our flamer can only go on some units with limited numbers, and is way to expensive. The shredder is even more expensive then a grenade launcher, and the heat lance is double the price of the melta with worse stats.
If we get an ranged wrack unit which has more options to take the hexrifle and liquifier gun (and both are reasonably priced) we are quite ok in number of weapons.

I think we say the same thing, we need more viable special weapons. I think the problem is in the viable (and that means both in pricing and in options to wield them, champions with heavy guns on melee units is just silly unless they become to cheap compared to similar guns or so good that you can just consider the rest of the squad ablative wounds).

If all those are viable we can have: auto hit (liquifier), anti tank, anti elite, anti infantry, anti character??
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 6:18

We do have :
- Great antitank (DL)
- Marvelous TEQ killer (dissies I love you )
- Good damage output vs High toughness
- Good MEQ killer (check the ossefactor. For real).

We lack :
- A good auto-hit weapon (useful for dealing with Alaitoc-style armies)
- A good GEQ killer
- A valid sniper option (having AP-1 on our sniper is really nice, but it's impossible to have a relevant amount of hexrifles).


Our non-DL AT options are bad (HWB and HL), but it's not like we need them. It would be fun and cool to have more options than just DL to deal with AT, but i'm more concerned with the things we REALLY lack.
- A good sniper

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 6:20

@|Meavar wrote:
Let's agree that the options we have right now are bad.

But I disagree that we need more special weapons, just that the ones we have are viable. As you mentioned 5 options are unusable right now (and 2 more the heat lance and shredder were forgotten by you)

But most races only have a few special weapons
flamer: liquifier
plasma: blaster
melta: heat lance (this is not darklight based, and also has different stats as the other darklight weapons)
grenade launcher??:  shredder
sniper rifle: ??

specialists:
haywire, ossefactor versus hot shot volley gun


That is roughly similar in number for guard and us. The major problem is that our flamer can only go on some units with limited numbers, and is way to expensive. The shredder is even more expensive then a grenade launcher, and the heat lance is double the price of the melta with worse stats.
If we get an ranged wrack unit which has more options to take the hexrifle and liquifier gun (and both are reasonably priced) we are quite ok in number of weapons.

I think we say the same thing, we need more viable special weapons. I think the problem is in the viable (and that means both in pricing and in options to wield them, champions with heavy guns on melee units is just silly unless they become to cheap compared to similar guns or so good that you can just consider the rest of the squad ablative wounds).

If all those are viable we can have: auto hit (liquifier), anti tank, anti elite, anti infantry, anti character??

In the lore the heat lance is a hybrid darklight weapon, though I see your point as it does not fill the same niche as other darklight weapons.

Agreed that if our weapons were all appropriately priced and did their jobs well, we would have a passable set of options. That includes removing the stupid restrictions like only Scourges get haywire and Shardcarbines... just because reasons.

Having melee only units that have no squad melee upgrades but very limited squad ranged upgrades is baffling. I mean, just have an option to swap their melee weapons for ranged weapons squad wide!

One other baffling thing to me for many editions now is that unlike many armies, our ranged squad leaders (for warriors and trueborn) get only melee weapon upgrade options. We don't have access to Combi Weapons or an equivalent for some reason, unlike marines and chaos. They cannot take an upgraded version of the squad weapons like Craftworlder Exarchs. Hell, even the Imperial Guard give the sarge the option of a boltgun, right? But our ranged squads only get melee options for their squad leaders, which has led to me commenting on more that one occasion that the free leader is a debuff to my trueborn as he is a body without a special/heavy weapon who I HAVE to take. Remove the free leaders and I can cram two more blasters into a raider!
PGL doesn't count in this rant, as it's a debuff that happens to work in the shooting phase, not an actual gun. S 1 AP - isn't a gun upgrade, it's a leadership shenanigans upgrade.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 6:28

PGL : Honestly paying 3pts for an extra shooting attack that is d3 S1 AP- is already kinda worth it. Doesn't replace your gun, and it will, due to sheer randomness, sometimes deal a wound. And when it does, it's already payed for. The LD shenanigan is pretty huge, and now that Guards have lost the commissar it has become a lot more useful for GEQ duty Smile

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 14:38

@Meavar

I agree very much that our range of special weapons does not need to improve if every weapon would do what it is supposed to do, we would have a surprising amount of options.

Nonetheless, even if weapons like Shredders, Hexrifles or Heat Lances were better I don't think much would change. But even if the before mentioned weapons were any good, we simply can't amass .

Even if the likes of Shredders or Heat Lances were any good, we simply can't amass them to any reasonable degree to make a difference. Mind you, darklight is great because we can spam it, the same used to be true for splinter fire.

Really, how many Liquifiers can you put into a list? I am convined that Wracks should be covenite Trueborn and carry 4 special weapons and occupy an elite slot. Now, that would make a difference.

People complain that Kabalite Warriors are a bland choice and point out the Splinter Rifle's trade-offs.
Just image they had more options available (like a Heat Lance) and were be able to carry 2x special weapons per 5 men, just like Corsair Reavers did in 7th edition. It would open so many possibilities.

Also, Bloodbrides. I would consider fielding them if every model could take a Wych Cult weapon.

Apart from speed, our special weapons should be the major factor that sets us apart from a horde army. It would be fluffy and opened up a lot of listbuilding possibilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 14:59

Not really into this convo.. BUT something cool so you since you said Nids was closer to DE.. NOPE! lol not at all.

Nids and Necrons are basically a copy army... to a point.

I wanted to play my nids back in 7th but they where crap, much like DE, but at least you could play 5 Flyrants.... stupid NO thats not nids, anyways i looked HEAVILY at all the armies to Proxy my nids with a different codex.

HOLY F(*% are necros close to nids... like... you can use the codex and swap the models and it works.


Terivgon = Ghost Arch
Warriors = Gants
Filledones = Genestealers
Ravengers = Wraiths
Tfex = Ghost arch that is upside down to make a large gun
Trygon = FW Sentinel
And 10 other units

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid/Dark Eldar: Observation   Tue 7 Nov - 15:26

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@Britishgrotesque wrote:
I would argue dark eldar lean towards melee attack, our power from pain does, our melee options are larger than ranged, and coven and cult are well and truly sunk into melee. It's just gw hasn't given us decent enough stats to use the units. We are meant to be a force which swarms with melee, and takes down armour with darklight, but in order to be competitive we are forced to play with one out of our three troops and ignore 2/3 of our index.

Yeah, it's clear from our Index that we're intended to be a melee-heavy army. We're just... not very good at it currently.

That's a point that actually gives me hope. I also get the impression that we are suppose to be an army capable of being melee-heavy and we simply aren't, which would suggest we should see significant adjustments in that phase of the game.

Obviously this is all conjecture, but my hopes are higher than they have been in a while.

Mine are as well. As a faction we came out of the index looking fairly good. I think we GW finally gets to our codex it will fix a few things. Most of the codex releases have been very good since 8th.
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