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 Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Sun Oct 29 2017, 16:35

So I've been doing some thinking about Commorite society, and namely coups within Kabals, Covens and Cults, and how they interact with the effective immortality of the upper classes of Commoragh through eternal rebirth.

The 5th and 7th ed codices, alongside the Haemi's expansion made frequent reference to the notion that the Soul of an Eladrith Ynneas can flee from its corpse and run back to a tiny bit of flesh held in a vat somewhere in Commoragh where it may be regrown into a fully formed body with the Soul of the 'dead' inhabiting it unhindered, bar the Haemonculus' price tag.

In such a situation, how can one ever be sure that they have destroyed all of a foes fall-backs and fails-safes when performing a coup, or even simply taking out a rival. Sure you could perform an exhaustive search of all their interactions during leadership, but with potential thousands of years to cover -not all of which were spent under the scrutiny garnered by their status- there is no way to be sure that you have caught everything. And I imagine the wrath of a returning Archon, Succubus or Khaine forbid a Haemonculus would be nothing to scoff at.

No, far safer to cut the resurrection off at the source, to clamp down on their essence and stop them from being reborn at all.

And thus we come to the Djinn Blade

For those uninitiated, the Djinn Blade (featured in our Artefacts of Cruelty lists prior to 8th edition) is described as entrapping some unfortunate soul, desperately struggling for freedom and trying to slay its wielder.

So, what if a Djinn Blade is used as a means of trapping the soul of a usurped opponent? This would be far safer than risking their return. Does this conflict with any other fluff?

If so, I imagine that the wielder of a Djinn Blade would be quite anxious to keep it on there person, as losing it could spell the return and eventual revenge of their defeated foe, a terrifying thought indeed.

Working within this framework, could I get some opinions on the flavour text below?

"Amongst the elite of Commoragh, death and subsequent rebirth are fickle things, a mere fact of existence within the dark city. A fact that often poses problems for enterprising Drukhari that wish to rise above their superiors, for no matter how surely you have slain your foe, you may never be certain that you have destroyed all of their fall-backs. And so comes forth the Djinn Blade, a technology developed in parallel to the Craftworlders Infinity Circuits. A Djinn Blade acts as the eternal vessel of its first victims soul, binding their essence to the blade with the finality of Iron. For this reason, the bearer of a Djinn Blade will be particularly careful with their weapon, for its loss or destruction may spell the release of their formerly defeated foe. If ever you sight someone wielding one of these fell weapons, you can be certain that they have killed at least one person to obtain it."

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Sun Oct 29 2017, 20:43

I'll add onto the quote list with stuff from the Lexicanum Wiki, to further illuminate the Djinn Blade, Spirit Stone parallelism and give more credence to this idea.


"Djin Blades are Dark Eldar weapons usually taking the form of polished crystal with a scowling bestial face upon its hilt. Each djin blade has a bloodthirsty sentience of its own and sometimes may even harm the wielder of the blade. Only archons are known to possess these strange, evil blades"

"Every Eldar wears a shinning gem or polished stone upon his breast. This psycho-receptive waystone is attuned solely to the mind of its owner. At the moment of the Eldar's death the stone acts like a "psychic trap" absorbing his psychic self[...] "

On Wraithguard and Constructs:
"These Wraithbone constructs are then piloted by the Eldar soul, which experiences reality in this form as a dream. This process is considered little better than necromancy in Eldar culture and is only done as a last resort."

Dark Eldar Mech
Djinn Blade Key
Head Canon Confirmed.

At the beating core of each Infinity Circuit is a Wraithbone chamber containing a murder-spirit so powerful that its battle-lust infects every Eldar soul, living or dead.

"There is one primary source of Spirit Stones: the old Eldar homeworlds that lie within the boundaries of the Eye of Terror and are now known as the Crone Worlds. Acquiring new Spirit Stones is extremely dangerous because the Crone Worlds exist within the Eye of Terror. In Eldar mythology the Spirit Stones were created by the Eldar God Vaul from the Tears of Isha. This tale is taken as a metaphor by the Eldar for the crystallisation of the psychic energies of the Eye of Terror into the Spirit Stones."


*NOTE*
"The graphic novel Daemonifuge features the Spirit Stones only passingly, but names them Soul Stones instead. However, the Eldar codexes name them as Spirit Stones. It is not known exactly what happens when a Spirit Stone is destroyed, but one can guess that the soul within is lost to Slaanesh. Also of note is that in the novel Dawn of War, a Spirit Stone is smashed by a Power Axe, resulting in an incredibly loud metallic ringing, and then an explosion that not only destroyed the Power Axe, but also sent Trythos, the Space Marine wielding it, flying a few metres away, thus indicating that Spirit Stones are a potent source of psychic energy."

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 16:19

Isn't the soul trap the artifact you are looking for?
I always assumed the djin blade was something like a webway or warp-like entity made sword.
The soul trap literally traps the soul of the victim and use it to empower the wielder.
So since the soul is in the artifact he cannot be resutected.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 16:45

"These Wraithbone constructs are then piloted by the Eldar soul, which experiences reality in this form as a dream. This process is considered little better than necromancy in Eldar culture and is only done as a last resort."

Wait... we know necromancy?
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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 17:08

Not only do the craftworld eldar practice Necromancy with the Wraithguard, but the some Dark Eldar Kabals are experimenting with it as well (Such as the Kabal of the Last Hatred, here's the link to Lexicanum on them. Short as it is: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kabal_of_the_Last_Hatred)
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 17:55

I'd consider the process of regeneration a crude form of necromancy as it is. Personally, I think there's no shortage of ways to trap an Eldar soul. Also recall Syndriq's Sump, a relic which trapped the consciousness of a wayward Covenite into a glorified drug dispenser.

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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 18:11

Its certainly interesting.
What you're basically suggesting is a weaponised Soulstone. Shaped like a sword.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 19:19

There's plenty ways to prevent an ennemy from being resurected. Trapping the soul is an efficient way. Another often often used is the glass plague virus. Since it convert all flesh in glass, it can't be used to the resurection. Major physical harm can too be used, such as black hole casquet.

But you need to keep in mind there is no loyalty in Commoragh. If you defeat a foe, you can easily assimilate his remaining kabal. Even if by a miracle he is resurected after, it won't matter. His troops won't stay loyal to him. And who would resurect a fallen archon? And why?
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Mon Oct 30 2017, 22:35

Their Knowledge

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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Tue Oct 31 2017, 17:42

@Barrywise wrote:
Their Knowledge

Here in my Lab, just got my new grotesque. You know what's better than a grotesque? Knaaawledge

Does anybody really need knowledge from an archon unable to stay alive?
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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Tue Oct 31 2017, 18:26

In regards to this I'm sure in the Path of the Dark Eldar book series one of the Archons/Succubi wields a sword containing the soul of one of their rivals. I might be mis-remembering but the sword attempts to betray her during an arena fight.

That aside it would be a very good method of imprisoning a rival or opponent. However there is the chance that they will kill your personally at the wrong moment (as Djinn blades are known to try) and further more it is only a temporary prison with their soul being able to escape upon the weapons destruction.

Once you have seized the leadership from someone in a coup even if they are brought back by a Haemonculus they have still lost their Kabal, the men aren't going to show them any loyalty since their demise and it gives them the chance to climb the ladder in the kabal.

For an aspiring Archon, I'm not sure it would be nessisary to remove an opponent from existence. Taking their power will leave them as an enemy out there plotting against you, just another one on the near endless list, and most likely Commoragh itself will take care of them. After all the Kabal will follow whoever has risen to the top and alliances are easily forgotten.

I think it might even make more sense if most archons, didn't annihilate their enemies personally and simply seize their power from them, hunting down as many of their allies and fail-safes as possible before leaving them to be torn apart in the streets. I guess this would make the Djinn-blades/soultraps even more infamous amoungst the Archons, as it wouldn't just take your kabal and leave you fighting for your life to climb back up from the lowest reaches with whatever allies remain, it will trap you as the plaything of the person who bested you and force you to watch as they rule over your kabal...until to find the perfect moment to strike.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Tue Oct 31 2017, 18:40

After much searching I've found the reference. Path of the Incubus page 57.

Bezieth of the Hundred Scars. I'm sure someone with a digital copy can give you the full quote.

"The enraged soul of the previous archon of the Soul Cutters, Axhyrian, was trapped within the crystalline djin-blade..."
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 03:08

So there you go Ikol, I believe because it is a weaponized soul stone, similar to Eldar Soul Stones, that it can be used to imprison Eldar/Dark Eldar souls inside of it. Soul Traps are able to trap anyone/anything's soul right?

My question now is, what happens when the Djinn blade is broken? Souls become Mandrake food?

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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 04:26

Quote :
My question now is, what happens when the Djinn blade is broken? Souls become Mandrake food?

I suspect that would hinge a great deal off of what has become of the trapped souls body. A lot of the Chambers novels deal with the concept of "True death," where the body is no longer able to be regrown. Victims of the Glass Plauge, extreme decomposition, and certain levels and degrees of burning will all do the trick. Aside from that, unless the victim is in possession of exceptional persistence, unless the resurrection process is started within a day or two, the soul will harmlessly be consumed by She Who Thirsts.

In addition, it would also depend on the strength of the soul at the time its trap is broken. In Path of the Incubus mentioned above, the Djinn blade is said to have gorged on the souls of daemons, vastly increasing its power. A strong soul will be able to persist far longer than a weak one for obvious reasons. So, a careful usurper has nothing to fear, a heedless one gets what's coming to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 11:20

I suspect this area of lore is left rather intentionally vague, and tbh I prefer it that way. Bacon is right in terms of the strength of the soul playing a big part supposedly, as this is the plot of Path of the Renegade to bring back a long dead soul.

My person head cannon would be that a soul is cast into the warp when it no longer has some flesh it can cling to or hide inside, in the same way it is described in old fluff about eldar souls simply re-emerging from the warp before the fall. This would explain why the stronger souls can still be brought back even after a long time, because the stronger they are the longer they can endure being in the warp before they are consumed by She Who Thirsts.

I'd think of it like falling into the sea; you can make lifelines and objects to cling to to keep yourself afloat, but if all those are destroyed then you have to tread water with your own strength, and wait for someone to save you. But eventually even the strongest will succumb and are swallowed up by the ocean.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 13:24

When an eldar dies in the webway, it's soul is not sent to the warp. It linger in the webway and is not harmed for a long time. That's what makes the resurection possible. When an eldar dies in the realspace, it's when it's dangerous. It must be resurected really fast to prevent She-Who-Thirst to eat the soul. Unless of course, you use other eldar trick, such as soulstones and the world-matrix the exodites uses.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 13:32

@dumpeal wrote:
When an eldar dies in the webway, it's soul is not sent to the warp. It linger in the webway and is not harmed for a long time. That's what makes the resurection possible. When an eldar dies in the realspace, it's when it's dangerous. It must be resurected really fast to prevent She-Who-Thirst to eat the soul. Unless of course, you use other eldar trick, such as soulstones and the world-matrix the exodites uses.

Interesting, is that from one of the codexes?

If that was the case wouldn't an archon or anyone dying in commoragh have nothing to fear? Since their soul would just linger until they can be brought back. Eldar who are in the webway still feel Slaanesh draining their souls away, hence the need to feed, so even if the effect is less than in realspace wouldn't their soul slowly be devoured over time?
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 22:00

@Vindicavi wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
When an eldar dies in the webway, it's soul is not sent to the warp. It linger in the webway and is not harmed for a long time. That's what makes the resurection possible. When an eldar dies in the realspace, it's when it's dangerous. It must be resurected really fast to prevent She-Who-Thirst to eat the soul. Unless of course, you use other eldar trick, such as soulstones and the world-matrix the exodites uses.

Interesting, is that from one of the codexes?

If that was the case wouldn't an archon or anyone dying in commoragh have nothing to fear? Since their soul would just linger until they can be brought back. Eldar who are in the webway still feel Slaanesh draining their souls away, hence the need to feed, so even if the effect is less than in realspace wouldn't their soul slowly be devoured over time?

They're still drained, but it's much slower than in realspace.
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 22:43

Surely if the only thing that stops their soul falling into the warp is the webway then how does any dark eldar survive dying outside of it? This just leads to more questions as to whether having your flesh samples with haemonculi would actually work if you die outside of the webway as there is nothing to stop your soul entering the warp. This also doesn't tally much with the plan of the White Flames archon as the section of webway where the old archon died was breached and exposed to the warp, theres no way their soul could have possibly survived without the webways protection.

It would also lead to assinations all taking place whilst outside of the webway to ensure the true death of the target and if so why would any paranoid archon set foot outside of the webway if they know that true death is highly unlikely should they stay within?
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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 22:49

Quote :
Surely if the only thing that stops their soul falling into the warp is the webway then how does any dark eldar survive dying outside of it?

The webway, due to its ancient protections against daemons, simply lessens the pull of She Who Thirts. It'll prolong the soul, but not save it. Further, I think it's explained in the novel that the Dark Eldar shield themselves by isolating their souls by trapping them within their own body. They bind their souls to their physical form to allow resurrection.

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PostSubject: Re: Fluff Discussion: The Djinn Blade as a means to keep a foe down.   Thu Nov 02 2017, 23:08

@TheBaconPope wrote:
The webway, due to its ancient protections against daemons, simply lessens the pull of She Who Thirts. It'll prolong the soul, but not save it. Further, I think it's explained in the novel that the Dark Eldar shield themselves by isolating their souls by trapping them within their own body. They bind their souls to their physical form to allow resurrection.

Ah that would make sense as to why they believed it possible to bring back the older archon, assuming his physical form had not been destroyed completely, his soul would still have been bound within it. So the soul can move between pieces of flesh until each of them is destroyed whilst still be subject to the draining effects of she who thirsts.

It would also explain why it would not matter if they died in realspace or the webway, as long as they had flesh samples stored in the webway presumably their souls would simple enhabit those samples and only be subject to the minor drain of inside the webway.
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