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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 07:05

It has come to my attention that we have 3 assault units that cost 9-10 points. Namely: Wyches, Wracks, and Khymerae.

So let's do a bit of a comparison of these three and see if there are any decisive winners and losers among them.

So for a start, cost. Wyches are 1 point per model cheaper than the other two, which is a good start for them.


Foot Speed. The Khymerae is easily fastest, a good 2" faster than Wyches and 3" faster than Wracks.
Factoring in transports: This is where it gets interesting, as since Khymerae are beasts they aren't exactly hopping on transports any time soon. However, with their high foot speed and the fact that they aren't going to be shooting they average about 3.5" advance, meaning that in a move only turn they are only marginally slower on average than a raider.
This means that for practical purposes, barring the raider also advancing (certainly not out of the question), the Khymerae is going to be fast enough either way.

So speed goes to the Khymerae but has an asterix.


Ranged Combat. Wyches win here, since they are the only option that comes stock with ranged weapons. Wracks get access to some special weapons, but at one ranged weapon per five models I cannot really say they outclass Wyches in this regard.


Now we get to the good stuff: the choppy bits.

Durability.
Ranged:
Wracks win this one, even without a Haemie nearby. Toughness 4 stock, 5++ and 6+++.
Khymerae come in a very close second, also toughness 4 stock and packing a 5++. HOWEVER, without a beastmaster nearby they have a measly leadership of 4, which is a serious weakness.
Wyches are easily worst here. T3, 6+, 6+++.
Melee:
This one is a bit tougher, as that 4++ dodge is nothing to sniff at. However, the stock T3 very much hurts Wyches still as the majority of threats that they will encounter will be getting +1 to wound them from this when opposed to the other options here.
Given this, I am going to say that the Wrack still wins by a hair, with the Wych coming in nanometers behind and the Khymerae being in the back due to their lack of a 6+++ and their low leadership. Still, this is VERY close.

Melee offense.
So, while all of our contenders are hitting on 3+ turn 1 and 2, come turn 3 the Khymerae with its lack of power from pain falls behind.
So, number of attacks: Factoring in stock wargear, both the Wrack and the Wych are putting out 2 attacks while the Khymerae is getting 3.
Damage wise, with stock gear the Wracks are wounding on 4+, the Wych is S 3, and the Khymerae is at S 4.

That means that as of turn 3+, the Kymerae is getting marginally more hits per turn than the other two, and against infantry it is wounding as often or more often than the others. the Khymerae wins this round.

So, on to force multipliers and other less tangible components.

Firstly, upgrades. Of the three, Wyches are the only ones with squad member melee upgrades available. Not entirely relevant since this is about them being bare bones, but still a valid point.

Secondly, Drugs. Wyches can boost themselves in one category, sometimes even enough to become top of the category, or at least match the top.

Thirdly, Characters. With a Haemie nearby, Wracks win both durability categories handily. With a Succubus nearby, Wyches become a bit more accurate. But with a Beastmaster nearby, Khymerae become both more durable (large leadership buff, potentially up to 10!) and more accurate (rerolling failed hits, to the Wyches 1's to hit.)

So, given all this...

Wyches won two secondary catagories (price and ranged attack) and two force multiplier catagories (Upgrades and Drugs), for a total of 4 categories... but none of the categories directly relating to close combat, with the upgrades category effectively negating the price advantage.

Wracks won Durability, but arguably won both subcategories. Call it 2 catagories.

Khymerae won on Speed and Offensive power, and also with the best Character support. 3 categories, with solid runner up for ranged durability too.


I would say that of the three, Wyches suffer badly from having the worst offensive punch of the team, with drugs + Succubus pulling them ahead of Wracks but not on par with a Khymerae + Beastmaster combo.

Wracks, despite only winning in one category, are still good BECAUSE of that category, as Wrack+Haemie shines on for durability against the majority of targets in both close combat and range.

Honestly? I would say that Khymerae + Beastmaster wins due to speed and punch, and thanks to being pretty durable against ranged fire. It is better in the early game but does not improve from power from pain.

What are your thoughts?


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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 11:19

For wyches, you forgot to take into account some things.

First, you should mention blaster pistols. Even if short range, you'll be using it often and S8 AP-4 D3 damage is still pretty good.
To me it's a decent addition to shooting, AND adds a decent punch to the "melee" as you can still fire while in close combat.

Secondly, MSU. Now you can pack 2x5 wyches in a raider. That means that if you put the points : 2 agonisers, 2 blast pistols, 2 special weapons. And those 2 extra pistol shots per turn (4 counting the opponent's turn) are really helping to kill stuff.

3rd, transports. Raiders & venoms (applies for both Wyches & covens). Both helps survivability, movements, and also gives a nice 3" boost when disembarking. Disembark 3" + stock movement 8" + 2" drug + advance D6" (average 4") + rerollable charge (Turn 2) average 9", wich gives a whoping 25" effective movent in one turn is nothing to sneeze at.

4th : grenade. Adds a D6 attacks AP -1 to shooting is also pretty cool (x2 with MSU).

5th : Access to phantasm grenade luncher.

6th : No escape rule. Even if rather random, still a little buff to survivability ; and potential CP burn.

7th : Other PfP bonuses.


To be honest, even in casual games wyches have done great so far in my games.

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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 12:59

@masamune wrote:
For wyches, you forgot to take into account some things.

First, you should mention blaster pistols. Even if short range, you'll be using it often and S8 AP-4 D3 damage is still pretty good.
To me it's a decent addition to shooting, AND adds a decent punch to the "melee" as you can still fire while in close combat.

Secondly, MSU. Now you can pack 2x5 wyches in a raider. That means that if you put the points : 2 agonisers, 2 blast pistols, 2 special weapons. And those 2 extra pistol shots per turn (4 counting the opponent's turn) are really helping to kill stuff.

3rd, transports. Raiders & venoms (applies for both Wyches & covens). Both helps survivability, movements, and also gives a nice 3" boost when disembarking. Disembark 3" + stock movement 8" + 2" drug + advance D6" (average 4") + rerollable charge (Turn 2) average 9", wich gives a whoping 25" effective movent in one turn is nothing to sneeze at.

4th : grenade. Adds a D6 attacks AP -1 to shooting is also pretty cool (x2 with MSU).

5th : Access to phantasm grenade luncher.

6th : No escape rule. Even if rather random, still a little buff to survivability ; and potential CP burn.

7th : Other PfP bonuses.


To be honest, even in casual games wyches have done great so far in my games.

Hang on, how are you getting Wyches to advance and charge?

I already credited Wyches with having far and away the best shooting of the three, but the point of this isn't "Who can stack up the most upgrades", it was the units with the best base value/cost, for melee. If you start pumping MSU, Raider, Launchers, special weapons ect it starts quickly jacking up the price, which is a big deal when talking about fairly cheap models like this.

PFP was factored into my calculations repeatedly, and applies to 2 out of the three units in any case. No escape was overlooked, true, but its unreliable nature makes it very hard to quantify.

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ecam
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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 13:26

Combat drugs should be calculated into the wyches as it's a free upgrade for the sqaud and u can pick the one you want.allso sqaud size should be as 20 wyches with +1 toughness thanks to combat drug are realy dangerous
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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 13:31

@ecam wrote:
Combat drugs should be calculated into the wyches as it's a free upgrade for the sqaud and u can pick the one you want.allso sqaud size should be as 20 wyches with +1 toughness thanks to combat drug are realy dangerous

Wyches did get combat drugs factored in. There's an entire section on it! The problem is that Khymerae are basically already Wyches with +2" move, +1 Attack, +1 Strength, and +1 Toughness. If you factor in a well placed Beastmaster they can also have a better leadership and be hitting on 3+ rerollable.

Drugs can compensate for one deficiency, but that means that Khymerae come stock with 4 of the combat drugs already applied and can easily share a 5th one with a beastmaster while still getting a better buff than the Succubus gives.

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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 18:27

@FuelDrop wrote:
Hang on, how are you getting Wyches to advance and charge?

My bad, edited.

@FuelDrop wrote:
If you factor in a well placed Beastmaster they can also have a better leadership and be hitting on 3+ rerollable.

And if you factor a near by succubus, wyches reroll one to hit ^^'

Blobs of stock wyches are good as tarpit thanks to the +T drugs.
Blobs with +1A are great for saturation.
Well equiped MSU wyches are decent in melee.

In my opinion they are versatile enough ; but I'm going off topic.

Point wise, I'd say Khymerae > wyches > wracks in most case, but as always it's depending of what you're facing and the synergy with the rest of the army Smile

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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 20:34

I think we are forgetting the most important factor here...the ability to be taken in multiples of five. I love running 10 Khymera in a lot of my games, but the fact that I either have to take a squad of ten, or two of four or six annoys the ever loving hell out of me. I can understand having a minimum squad size, but why did they have to organize them in pairs?
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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 21:42

@TheBaconPope wrote:
I think we are forgetting the most important factor here...the ability to be taken in multiples of five. I love running 10 Khymera in a lot of my games, but the fact that I either have to take a squad of ten, or two of four or six annoys the ever loving hell out of me. I can understand having a minimum squad size, but why did they have to organize them in pairs?

Its b.c they sell them in 2's

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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 21:49

Quote :
Its b.c they sell them in 2's

See, I can understand some of the logic there. But Kabs are sold in packs of ten, and I'm perfectly able to take a squad of six, or of eight in that matter. It's not that big of a problem, just a little inconvenient in that everything else in our army seems to be based around ones and fives, and Khymera are just inexplicably in twos.

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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 21:53

They want to make the kit worth their money at the same time.
It's about money as well

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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 21:59

because a pair is functionally a single model that loses half it's attacks when it takes a wound, and it's clearer to demonstrate that by abstracting it into two bodies that must be bought in pairs.
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PostSubject: Re: ten point terrors!   Mon Oct 30 2017, 12:32

You can still have other amounts of khymera, only if you play with power points does it matter but then wyches come in steps of 5 which is even worse.

I think khymera are the best money.
Wracks are the defensive guys, and are right now not as good as khymera good in a mixed army but in a coven the best bet since the khymera otherwise are often the preferred target since they are more offensive oriented with less defensive options than the other coven units.
Wyches are slightly worse in my mind, but are more customizable, both with drugs and weapon options.
So to me wyches and wracks are slightly on the bad side of the scale right now and both could do with a small point reduction both have their uses in the army that is build with them in mind. Khymera are more of a good general damaging unit, while the others have more specific functions.
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