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 Make the Succubus great again!

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 00:09

So, the Succubus. Thousands-of-years-old master gladiators, and among the finest warriors in the galaxy. They live to fight, and in close combat they are all but peerless, moving with unmatched speed and grace.

At least in the fluff. In the crunch, they are arguably the weakest CC HQ in the index for DE and are nowhere near the level of other armies cc HQs in any role.

So, how can this be fixed?

I think the first thing we need to do is look at the roles that a Succubus can take. I am a firm believer that a Succubus should be able to be kitted out to fill any CC role except anti-vehicle, meaning they need options for:

1) General combat. Succubi should have a jack of all trades option. A Succubus bringing weapons for all comers should not be a revolutionary idea.

2) Horde-slaying. Lots of attacks, maybe a penalty to be hit in return, not much else. A Succubus should be able to take on a large horde if correctly equipped.

3) Elite Slaying. Cut through Space Marines easily, and heavier stuff with a bit of effort.

4) Hero Hunting. A Succubus should automatically be a credible threat in a duel, but if geared specifically for character slaying then even named characters should have to watch their step around her.

5) Monster Mulching. Kind of like Hero slaying, but on bigger beasties. Carnifexes, Greater Demons, that sort of thing, a specialized anti-big-guy weapon would be a good thing.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 00:33

Nice ideas overall, would definitly love to be able to kit them for my needs (one for horde, one for elites Very Happy) and feels like right they are more a support HQ rather than the melee beast she should be.

Regarding the agility, I'd love them to have an old ability (thought it as Drazhar) allowing them to move/reposition freely in melee. Could be great to go characters hunting passing over bubble wraps.
Would also be a risk as she could be isolated.

Maybe bonuses when hitting character (kinda like Lelith duelist stuff) but weaker & stock on succubus.

Maybe rending too (additionnal mortal wound on 6 to wound vs HQ, 5 vs Elites, 4 vs anything else ?) to represent them outclassing other lesser races heroes ; and would be a great addition to get through those pesky high invulnerable saves.

Maybe not get all, but be able to pick one between 3 so it stays balanced ? Or versus a cost in points for each ?

So much can be done here ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 00:42

@masamune wrote:
Nice ideas overall, would definitly love to be able to kit them for my needs (one for horde, one for elites Very Happy) and feels like right they are more a support HQ rather than the melee beast she should be.

Regarding the agility, I'd love them to have an old ability (thought it as Drazhar) allowing them to move/reposition freely in melee. Could be great to go characters hunting passing over bubble wraps.
Would also be a risk as she could be isolated.

Maybe bonuses when hitting character (kinda like Lelith duelist stuff) but weaker & stock on succubus.

Maybe rending too (additionnal mortal wound on 6 to wound vs HQ, 5 vs Elites, 4 vs anything else ?) to represent them outclassing other lesser races heroes ; and would be a great addition to get through those pesky high invulnerable saves.

Maybe not get all, but be able to pick one between 3 so it stays balanced ? Or versus a cost in points for each ?

So much can be done here ^^

With the rending idea I did have a concept (might be a touch OP tbh) that Wyches have an "innate" AP of -1 which they can use instead of their weapon's AP if the innate AP is better, with Bloodbrides having a -2 and Succubi having a -3.

This represents their ability to target weak points in defenses at JUST the right angle for maximum efficiency. otoh I can see why making every weapon a power sword in the hands of a Succubus could be considered OP Razz

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 01:09

Yeah sounds really op, I'd spam them with stock equipements haha.

Maybe -1 to hit them while in melee ? :3

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 01:42

@masamune wrote:
Yeah sounds really op, I'd spam them with stock equipements haha.

Maybe -1 to hit them while in melee ? :3

Could be. In my 7th edition codex I gave them a 3++ dodge in challenges since they only have to focus on evading one target's attacks, rather than a whole group.

I think maybe make the Shardnet give -1 to hit the model in the fight phase.

Maybe give Wyches, Bloodbrides and Succubi an EXTRA -1 to a weapon's AP in the fight phase, because they know where to hit? It has the result that giving an agonizer to an archon and a Succubus, the Succubus is just so good that she makes better use of it.

Maybe also give Succubi something like the lethal precision rule from the Incubi leader? +1 damage on a 6+ to wound roll?


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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 10:44

Like always, there is a myriad of ways in which a model can be buffed.

To get things straight, the Succubus is not bad. Despite everything, "No Escape" is a great rule and the 4++ has always been very strong. But there are two areas where she is lacking: offensive potential and as a buff vector.

Offensive potential
S5 is great, but due to 3+ to hit, it only becomes an advantage in round 3 and onwards. And while a Huskblade and the Electrocorrosive Whip both deal 2 damage (on average), the Archite Glaive only does one.
So, until round 3, we are left with a weapon that is barely better than an Agonizer. And on top, she has the least number of attacks.

Potentially, she can have T4 or S6, but realistically most will take the movement drug so she does not need a transport. It's the bane of our HQ's that she suffers from. The bane of not fitting into a transport with a 5/10 men squad.

Solution: Just give the Archite 2 modes:
- Double Handed: 2 damage, +2S, -1 to hit
- Single Handed: 1 damage, +2A, +1S, -1 to hit

Especially the 2 damage per blow is mandatory to kill bigger stuff. I'm fine with the -1 to hit and with No Escape she has a reasonable way to lock up enemies until round 3 is reached.
And with a single handed mode you provide a certain amount of versatility that none of our other HQ's have in combat.

Buffing potential
Again, the Haemonculus is way superior in this aspect, which would not be a tragedy if she'd be superior in terms of combat. Nonetheless, to make her a great HQ Succubus she needs more than the minuscule thing she got now.

I'd say she should get a +1A as a buff bouble. Just make her more expensive for balance's sake and suddenly you have a very fearsome attack force. Just imagine Hellions with 3 S5 attacks or Wyches with 4 attacks each.

Or maybe make the Succubus less expensive, remove the buff and give the buff to Lilith instead.


Edit: Actually, I'd like to see our HQ's being specialized in the following way:
Archon: Specialized for certain enemy types and a great selection of wargear. Great buff, something similar to the Farseer Doom.

Succubus: Great in combat and can deal with a wide range of threats just with the Archite Glaive alone. Smallest buff bubble of all HQ's.

Haemonculus: Weak vs hordes, but very good against everything else and has an excellent buff buble. Comes at a premium price.

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Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Sat Oct 28 2017, 10:58; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 10:57

The +1A aura would be insane *-*

Pick 9 bloodbrides and a succubus in a raider, only with blood brides you got yourself

9 models x ( 2 basic attacks + 1 dual weapons + 1 drug + 1 aura ) + 1 Siren = 46 attacks.

Maybe make it balanced so it targets cults only, as a 10 men squad of incubies or big blob of clawed fiends would make a total mess (especially if played as ynari..)

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 11:03

@masamune wrote:
The +1A aura would be insane *-*

Pick 9 bloodbrides and a succubus in a raider, only with blood brides you got yourself

9 models x ( 2 basic attacks + 1 dual weapons + 1 drug + 1 aura ) + 1 Siren = 46 attacks.

Maybe make it balanced so it targets cults only, as a 10 men squad of incubies or big blob of clawed fiends would make a total mess (especially if played as ynari..)

Of course it should only affect Cult models. Mind you, if she had that buff, her price would probably need to exceed that of a Haemonculus.

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 13:17

The thing is that at present our Auras are both weak (for the most part) relative to other HQ units with similar auras, AND only affect a fraction of our army. Either they need to buff the whole army, or they need to be powerful to compensate for their lack of coverage. I mean seriously, reroll 1's in the fight phase for less than a third of the army, compared to the Autarch's army wide reroll 1's to hit in all phases? and that isn't even getting into other armies named character buffs, which make our one unique aura look like even more of a joke. (+1 to hit on one unit that is already hitting on 2+ by round 3? When other named characters get stuff like reroll all failed hits and wounds for everything in range, all phases?!?).

So powerful, tightly focused auras are something we should have.

Also, unless they actually make the glaive on par with a power fist they need to lose the -1 to hit. As is we are paying 10 points (vs power fist 12, and ours has not been errata'd so it still counts) for a weapon with worse strength boosting, worse AP AND worse damage, while having the same penalties.

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 20:49

I think an interesting approach would be to give the Succubus a unique set of drugs. She's the head of the Cult, why shouldn't she get a better fix than the rest?

1) +6 Attacks. May only be made with a Close Combat Weapon (Anti-horde)
2) +2 Strength, Add one to the AP of attacks (Anti-MEQ)
3) Reroll failed to Wound rolls against enemy CHARACTERS (Hopefully self-explanatory)
4) +1/+d3 to Damage. (Anti-Monster)

At least that's my tentative idea

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sat Oct 28 2017, 21:45

Look at Troupe Master and tell me if the TM had Wych and Drukhari keywords and the ability to work with Wych you wouldnt just take a TM everytime.

DE are purposely overcosted and i dont understand why GW needs to keep doing this over and over again.

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sun Oct 29 2017, 05:11

Okay: Here is my suggestion.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2KHJVG45kkOZE05eUNIclRqOWc

Archite Glaive serves as an anti-Character killer, and also doubles as being able to slam just about anything else as a result.

Impaler serves as an anti-big-things weapon, decent AP a Strength bonus and lots of damage.

Hydra Gauntlets and Razorflails both help with the anti-horde, with one being good for pumping out lots of Wounds with rerolling any fails, and the other being good for armoured opponents.
Shardnet and Impaler acts as a mini-Archite Glaive without rerolls and a No Escape bonus.

Shift back to pain tokens for PfP + specialised tables for different factions. This particular one gives Wyches distance rerolls and advance+charge (which has become a fundamental for ALL assault factions in the game bar our own). The same 'Eager to Flense' we have now. And some extra bonuses for rolling a 6 to hit or wound that greatly increase damage output.
All of this is tied to pain rather than patience.

Combat Drugs becomes a turn-by-turn thing with greater range for bonuses, but also an added risk of Mortal Wounds on overdoses.

Innured to Suffering has become a flat rule. Basic Infantry will keep the 6+ of the Index, characters and Coven units will garner a 5+ whilst the special case of Urien Rakarth garners a 4+. Ambiguity has also been removed from the wording, you roll once for each point of damage.



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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sun Oct 29 2017, 12:42

I once toyed with drugs being a 1/game/unit buff that boosted a whole bunch of stats and made the enemy reroll overwatch against them, but only lasted one turn. It made wyches hit like a rocket propelled tram on the first charge, then they came off their high for the cleanup.

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sun Oct 29 2017, 12:44

Also, good suggestions Ikol. Didn't see blast pistol ont the options and maybe make the torment blade do mortal wounds on 6's?

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Sun Oct 29 2017, 13:19

@FuelDrop wrote:

Didn't see blast pistol on the options...

"Blast" Pistol comes from "Blaster" which is the slang for "Darklight Blaster", thus a Blast Pistol is actually a Darklight Pistol.

I gave it a range buff in compensation for the fact that Fusion Pistols (which come in at the same cost) deal D6 damage as opposed to the 'Blast Pistol' which deals D3.  I also like the 36", 18", 9" range set better than 36", 18", 6".  Its just more... Mathematically pleasing.

Quote :
maybe make the torment blade do mortal wounds on 6's
.

That, plus my PfP table plus the Succubus base abilities results in the Succubus knocking out things like Gulliman in singular rounds of combat. Damage is better for balance as it gives the opponent saves. It also puts the Tormentor in a slightly better position than the Archite Glaive, my version of Demiklaives and even some named character weapons in the new Dexes, making points-balancing the thing a nightmare (15 point melee weapon? Nope.)

Also: the Tormentor is intended to be a regular Wych option alongside Razorflails, Hydra Gauntlets and the Shardnet and Impaler. Having it deal mortal wounds becomes dangerous when every model in a Bloodbride Clique can take one.

In short: Mortal Wounds are powerful, and the Succubus already has an avenue to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Mon Oct 30 2017, 00:25

For me I like the idea of a succubus being a solid combat choice in almost any situation, they are bred to be a cut above after all. Firstly she needs a boost to her number of attacks, it's ridiculous that of our three generic HQ's she has the lowest number of attacks. Secondly the archite glaive in my opinion isn't strong enough to warrant her striking at a minus 1, throw that away. If she had 6 attacks base that would help a lot and then change the glaive as follows. Two fighting styles and you decide which one she uses at the beginning of each combat. one is a heavy attack done at -1 to hit but adds +3 strength (making her S6) and is -2 AP. The other is a light attack made at full WS and grants +3 attacks (total of 9) and these are done at user strength and -1 AP. The numbers here can be shifted for balance but the idea is she has a high volume of attack weapon option to help clear units and then a heavier hitting style for killing elite infantry or dueling other characters. Her base number of attacks gets boosted to really help her shine as the HQ choice you want in melee where the Haemonculus and Archon will clearly be inferior to her in that regard. I honestly don't even care if she retains her aura buff to cult units either, to me she should be a deadly knife cutting through your opponents forces, not a tactician aiding the troops. I do however love the idea of the trophy rack being a -1 LD bubble around those who have it. Make a choice between having that or a phantasm grenade launcher on a back slot item and they will stack (two trophy racks don't stack though) and then add grisly trophies to vehicles gear as an aura too that will stack. The idea being that 1 nade hit, 1 vehicle and one trophy rack will stack to a -3 when used together. The succubus would be given the option for a trophy rack or phantasm grenade launcher.

A note about the impaler, why is the impaler stats the same as the shardnet+impaler stats? That makes no sense. Impaler should be user strength, -1 AP and 2 damage and the shardnet stacks -1 to the no escape roll result of your opponent per shardnet in the unit. This would mean a full net squad rolling a 1 would still hold an opponent in place unless they rolled a 5 or 6. Seems like a good rule to me, maybe add one net to each Wych squad to help them all keep opponents in place or stack 3 in 1 squad to almost guarantee you'll keep them in the fight.

Just my two cents anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Mon Oct 30 2017, 00:55

My Succubus would be, 5 attacks base, 3 weapon types.
Anti-MC: Agonisher/Electro whip
Anti-Elite: Glaive - without the -1 to hit and 2D always, +2Str
Anti-Horde: Twin blades - +2 attacks, -1ap Str 4  

Aura, Wyches re-roll all 1's

Arena Experience: Due to years of experience fighting many enemies and beasts, the Succubus knows the weakness of all enemies.  Wound rolls of 6 generate a MW

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Mon Oct 30 2017, 06:39

Succubus- 2+ to hit in CC, 5 attacks, 2+ to wound against anything (like farseer's singing spear), except vehicles which are hit with base strength. Weapons used will change AP and damage.

Re-roll all hit and wound melee rolls for herself and wych units within 6".

3++ in combat, 4++ permanent.

Succubus ALWAYS attacks first in a combat.

If you want her dead you'll either have to feed her a squad and shoot her next round, smite her or assassinate her. She needs to be an absolute beast in combat, but not quite as good as a Solitaire.

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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Mon Oct 30 2017, 07:52

Apart from the aura ability I like your suggestion DEfan. Razorflails are re-roll to hit and Hydras are re-roll to wound already so I feel the ability overlaps too much with the specials. If the special weapons were changed then it'd be fine but as they are I wouldn't mind seeing her offer something a bit more unique to the cult units around her. Either that or remover any aura from her altogether and just make her a bit more deadly to compensate, perhaps more attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Make the Succubus great again!   Mon Oct 30 2017, 09:03

Could give her a +1 to hit and to wound aura, and personal rerolls on failed hits and wounds instead of just wounding everything on 2+

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