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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Dec 14 2017, 18:19

1000 and 2000 point games usually consist of entirely different builds. For instance, in 7th edition, a good 2000 point Sisters build would be Immolator spam, while for 1000 points you wanted to cram in as many Penitent Engines as humanly possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Sun Dec 17 2017, 03:28

Tactical Tidbit:

G-Man hurts in close combat. This is all.


But on a more serious note, I have taken to using a farseer in my competitive lists simply to have access to some mortal wounds (smite and executioner) as well as doom, making all the poison and the lances more effective to take out a key target.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Sun Dec 17 2017, 09:37

Thats why i killed everything else and then just jump up onto buildings/hills and shot him Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Sun Dec 17 2017, 17:05

Just a single farseer working out or are you bringing a supreme command of 3 hqs?
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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Mon Dec 18 2017, 19:11

I am using a single Farseer as an aux detach.

So! with target priority, I am finding that it is more important to kill things with a lot of shots (like a levi dread) then the lascannon predators.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Mon Dec 18 2017, 21:47

@Skari wrote:
I am using a single Farseer as an aux detach.

What would your thoughts be on using Rangers as well to get a patrol detachment and avoid losing a Command Point? For only 60 points they seem like a pretty worthwhile investment.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Mon Dec 18 2017, 23:28

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I have no idea who you're playing against but this army has done nothing but frustrate me. For instance, I will use Razorwing Flocks to screen. Great, except they're pricey for what they do, and if your opponent has any kind of horde mechanics, they're going to lose the horde vs. horde game every time. I play against Orks a lot and the Boyz and Shootas and Grots just annihilate my bird screen.

Also, the Haemonculus' only job in my army is to buff vehicles, which means all my fast vehicles have to be clumped around a slow as balls HQ or else they lose their toughness value. If this wasn't bad enough, he's generally clobbered first in any close combat he sees, and a 5++ save will not keep him alive. At all.

Covens units are overpriced for what they do and generally lack the punch to maul their way through the aforementioned hordes of Boyz like they used to.

The Webay Portal stratagem I have never used, not because I think it's bad in and of itself, but I can't think of a single time I'd want to get my infantry EVEN CLOSER to a rampaging horde of Orks. If anything it should probably be used to keep things off the table for as long as possible, but frankly we need all the shooting we can get for as long as possible before the opponent is inevitably in our faces.

And if I sound like I'm banging a drum talking about Orks, it's because they're another fully Index army so it's more or less apples to apples. If I was to compare Dark Eldar to, say, Tyranids or Eldar, we all know who would win those matches and the tired excuse of "it's just until we get a codex!" would be trotted out.

My best friend is an Ork player, and I shred him everytime we play. i like Orks but Index-Index I find myself in a pretty good spot against him.

If you wanna be really competitive, in my opinion you must left at home any Coven unit.

Don't play Razorwing Flocks, they're overpriced, and we don't really need any meatshield if we are running an MSU (thing that you will do actually). Once you're protected against deepstriking, you've done. No need of any chaff unit.

You're right about the Haemonculus, and we found that the best unit to get into a Venom boosted from him is 5xTrueborns w/2 DarkLances. Sometimes you don't need to move, you will be in range as well. And when you need to move, you will move just by 6"-12" for getting yourself in range. Hitting at 4+ is not so bad when you are running 4+ units like this, plus Ravager and Scourges: you will be able to get something like 15+Lances, you're fine.
You need the Haemi only for turn 1, and maybe 2. So you will be kinda stationary for the first turn (sometimes even for the second) so the Haemi can buff your Venoms with no problems. During turn 3-4 you will run for objectives. And into any "dominion style" game, you can manage some of the objectives with other units.

You will be able to shoot down any tank, and shred any Lootas that will deploy.

Protect yourself against DS units. Da Jump+Kommandos are nasty, but you can protect yourself using:
-Flyers, on the first turn
-x2 Khymerae are great for this
-Empty Venom or 5 Disembarked Kabals. When you're short, it's better to sacrifice Kabals for the role.


Our Venom are kinda immortal against Orks which they'll hit us on 6+ and we can bait any melee unit easely. Actually, as an Ork, I will really fear DE.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Mon Dec 18 2017, 23:50

What Ork list is he playing? B.c DE wrecks the Mech Gun list, but gets destroyed by the Weirdboy/Boyz lists, there is no way we can kill enough of the 180 Boyz before they mob us on turn 2.

Edit: If he isnt playing those lists and is doing something with Bikes, mechs etc.. then yeah, but those are fun lists.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Dec 20 2017, 08:15

And why venoms w trueborn?
Ravagers are cheaper, as much survability, always hit on a 3+ and have an extra darklance . It sounds like you are doing yourself a dis service.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Dec 20 2017, 11:28

@LordSplata wrote:
And why venoms w trueborn?
Ravagers are cheaper, as much survability, always hit on a 3+ and have an extra darklance . It sounds like you are doing yourself a dis service.

First of all, you want to run them both Smile the Typo-list up here is 5xTrueborn W/DL on Venom, and 2 Ravagers.


But for Trueborn on Venom:
-They got a -1 to hit
-After 6 Wounds, they just deploy and still shooting at 3+
-They are bodies.


I don't think that one is better than the other. Ravagers for example can move and shoot at 3+. But Rava tends to get focussed over multiple Venoms.
For me, I prefer the 4 blasters way because I like to play more aggressive, but I must admit that the double-Lance one is way more safer and works way better with the booster Haemi.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Dec 20 2017, 11:30

Yep, i was about to type that same thing out.

Its a 2nd line of Defense and a way to keep Lances on the table. I use 2-3 Trueborn units normally in my DE TAC list, i try to place them up in terrain (since our vehicles have fly) so they can not get DS+Charged turn one easily and can sometimes get Cover or LoS blocking.


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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Jan 17 2018, 18:01

The Value of the Venom.

Tactical Tidbit- one venom? Good, two venoms better, four venoms great, six venoms?.... excellent.

I would recommend the double splinter cannons, the volume of shots is great, the speed is amazing and they are small and easy to hide. The units inside are great at taking objectives and with blasters the compliment the venom nicely.

Best served with a farseer that can doom a target and have the venoms re roll wounds...

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Jan 17 2018, 19:20

It's a bit of a weird way to think of it, But just the venom base is the same number of wounds and toughness as 2 grotesques and the price is comparable. Their ability to survive is statistically the exact same, 5++ and -1 to hit compared to the Grot's 5++ and 6+ FnP. Also, a Haemonculus can boost both of them up to T6. You pay a little bit extra on the Venom so that it can shoot, but with it's superior BS, doesn't degrade, excellent range and decent dakka, along with being able to transport troops inside and protect them until the venom fails, either the venom is a steal or the Grotesques are just plain overcosted.

If I ever follow my dream of collecting Coven and converting them into a New York Mafia style, I'll just have 2 Grotesques holding baseball bats as my venoms. They can just carry my dudes into battle on their shoulders or something. Splinter Cannon (Tommy Gun) shoulder/head mounted.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Jan 17 2018, 19:27

Sadly, Grots are over costed tho, they should be 20pts base as they are.

I understand your point, but imbalance kinda make it funny lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Wed Jan 17 2018, 21:50

Grotesques need more wounds or a 5+ inured to pain. They just aren't as resilient as they were with multi damage weapons being a thing. Damage wise they aren't to bad. Wish the cleaver did D2 to up it some.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 06:53

@amishprn86 wrote:
Sadly, Grots are over costed tho, they should be 20pts base as they are.

I understand your point, but imbalance kinda make it funny lol.

I think 20 points sounds little bit low if we compare them to ogryns who also cost 30 and have worse buffs but a gun. Then I realise that you pay 6 points for a weapon you do not want to use usually and I have to agree with you. Unless they get a cheaper option to replace their weapons with.

Or let them keep the current cost but get an additional wound (and attack?).

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 09:27

@|Meavar wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Sadly, Grots are over costed tho, they should be 20pts base as they are.

I understand your point, but imbalance kinda make it funny lol.

I think 20 points sounds little bit low if we compare them to ogryns who also cost 30 and have worse buffs but a gun. Then I realise that you pay 6 points for a weapon you do not want to use usually and I have to agree with you. Unless they get a cheaper option to replace their weapons with.

Or let them keep the current cost but get an additional wound (and attack?).


Ogrens tho i thought benefit from other rules more so? You need to look at others that are close to them, like the Tyranid warriors, theyare also 20pts, 3 wounds, but can get a large range of weapons and even many ranged weapons (like HB's and ML's) for dirt cheap (4pts) or Power Swords (2pts) +1 movement and charge (1pts).

Then looking at Wraithguard/Blades (we are basically the same cost as them) they are leaps and bounds better in every way, +1 toughness, 3+ armor, able to get 4++ etc...

Or like you said, make weapons cheaper. But i would rather the body be cheaper so we can take more.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 12:15

Tyranid warriors have s and t4 so have significantly worse stats.

I think Ogryns might have more special rules but are not that great actually.
Ogryns do get +1 attack on the charge I think (but start with 1 attack less base I think and their weapon does not give +1 attack and do not have invunerable saves hitting on a 3+ no rerolls for charges etc).
So I think having the base price at 20 might be a bit to cheap, but having the final price slightly less then now might be ok, depending on what weapons you give them. We are better than ogryns (with more attacks, movement, PfP and an invunerable save) but no shooting.

Expecially if you also look at bulgryns, who cost close to 50 points for an invul of 4+ and 3 s7 d2 attacks.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 12:46

Warriors tho get 3 range attacks S5 24" -1ap, 4 melee, -2ap for 27pts with a 4+ save, vs a 40pts model with a 5++/6+++ +1 Toughness with 5 -1ap attacks.

Warriors trade Toughness for Damage, 128pts of Grots is 3 models with 1 weapon, 129pts of Warriors is 5 models all with range and melee. Thats 9 wounds with a slightly better save (only vs AP) and +1 toughness, vs 15 wounds.

To me the Warriors are a clear winner, this isnt even looking at Wraiths either.

Lets do Wraithblades 29pts Base, thats 3+ T6 3 Wounds lol, ok already better. Swords, +1S -3ap, 3 attacks (+1 attack on charge) 6pts Total 35pts (5pts cheaper). With the S and more AP, even tho its less attacks its still more damage. The +1 toughness over Grots for cheaper is also better.


Bulgyrns being able to either be 2+ or 4++ with Str 7 ap and 2 damage is worth the points. One of the top IG players is playing a unit of them, (I was listening to a pod cast with him, he is in love with them).

If Grots were S7 2d melee as they are? I would say they are fine. Wounding all infantry on a 3+ is very strong, and able to 1 wound elite units at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:19


4 nids with gun and powersword for 27 points (yes those powerswords are to cheap I agree) 108 points
12 wounds t4 4+ and 16 s4 ap -2 attacks
3 grots with agonizer and cleaver for (31+3+4 =38) 114 points
9 wounds t5 5++ 6+ and 15 attacks s5 ap-1 or 12 s* ap-2 +3s5 ap -1
So the difference is minimal, depending on who shoots most things either need worse rolles to wound us or also ignores part of their save. Fighting is roughly the same, if fighting guard then the nids are slightly better (7.1 vs 6.94) but when when fighting marines we actually do more damage and survive longer (3.56 vs 4.17 wounds). Against a wraithknight (they deal 1.2 wounds and we deal 3.75, yes we deal more damage to a wraithknight then they do to marines).
We are also faster (+1 move and reroll charges). We mainly lack good stratagems that they do have acces to.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:41

But you dont just fight, Nids shoot and Fight.

Nids 4man unit will get 12 S5 -1ap shots, that alone will kill 2 Marines, then melee another 3.56.
Also nids can get +1 movement and Charge for 1pt, so no, its the same movement, 112pts vs 115pts then.

And how did you get 4.17 wounds to SM? We are 4 attacks each, 4 of them with -2, 2 of them +1 attack, so 10 S5 -1 ap = 2.22 wounds, 4 attacks with agoniser is 0.89 wounds against SM, thats just a small chance to get over 3 wounds.

Also only 1 can have an Agonsier, others must take Flesh Gantlets.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:49

@amishprn86 wrote:
But you dont just fight, Nids shoot and Fight.

Nids 4man unit will get 12 S5 -1ap shots, that alone will kill 2 Marines, then melee another 3.56.
Also nids can get +1 movement and Charge for 1pt, so no, its the same movement, 112pts vs 115pts then.

And how did you get 4.17 wounds to SM? We are 4 attacks each, 4 of them with -2, 2 of them +1 attack, so 10 S5 -1 ap = 2.22 wounds, 4 attacks with agoniser is 0.89 wounds against SM, thats just a small chance to get over 3 wounds.

Also only 1 can have an Agonsier, others must take Flesh Gantlets.

Ah yes there I went wrong I forgot only 1 could have a agonizer.
And you use the cleaver, that means 15 attacks: 12.5 hits, 8.3 wounds, 4.2 after saves. (Which again highlights the problem which are the flesh gauntlets which give increase the cost by 11-17% and rarely increase damage compared to the cleaver. especially since we already have poison in spades in our army.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Sat Jan 20 2018, 02:32

Lots of great ideas out there!

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Sat Jan 20 2018, 21:09

The -1 to hit is is often offset by the Eldar Dark Reapers who auto hit and other factions getting +1 to hit on there heavy weapon setups or on units with fly

SO I personally do not consider the durability to be there with venoms
Its getting close to raider stats and I find my raiders more durable with DL or DC options

Splinter Cannons are a thing of 7th ed like venoms
over costed this edition I never take them, stick with the standard dual splinter rifle on flyers, and having to pay for a SC on on a venom is a waste of points
They are not assault , so at -1 you miss more often than not
Also other shooters like bolters etc wound on 5+ lower T for vehicles but ours are 6s on vehicles
So while a general 4+ for non vehicles , its a limited weapon which is overcosted
Id rather drop beasts x6 and flyboarders or 10 grotesques plus harmoc in the enemys rear to DISTRACT him lol and take out alot of units
Im personally trying out 60-100 wyches also as a cheap massive assault screen with heavy shooting the rest
Venoms dont make the cut for that

Maybe the new codex will make them much cheaper along with SCs
Which is an expectation but I still would be reluctant to use them
As an objective grabber I use two scourge units and as AT
Its a more flexible unit or flyboarders

How have you found the ITC games Skari?

IN New Zealand ive done well vs marines armies, primaris, some guard builds have been hard to beat Necrons have been easy so far, Grey Knights ive beaten every game
A top NZ player used a ynari build with tons of Eldar Dark Reapers and an auto hitting eldar flyer against me
Took out all ravagers x3 in one turn then all flyers x3 in 2nd turn
Pretty OP
He said he was expecting Eldar Dark Reapers to be nerfed mid this year with new updates but we will see
I note if I got first turn I would have won and he agreed
Alpha striking can be critical
Still to play other builds

Also important comment beware imperial guard hellhounds and any other flamer units that can auto hit ya flyers

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PostSubject: Re: Tactical Tidbits - Skaris Book of Wisdom   Sat Jan 20 2018, 21:35

Dark Reapers will be nerfed soon. They are destroying the scenes atm, and if we learned anything from GW they nerf (over nerf normally) those units.

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