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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 23:27

Unless you were going to take one casualty, then you have to execute one and reroll a higher number...

On a side note - GW needs a different name for the Morale Phase. Seems like the majority spell it moral, which is something entirely different!

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 00:26

Quote :
Seems like the majority spell it moral, which is something entirely different!

Funny : in french, it's Moral (for the troop courage) and morale (for the ethic values).

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 03:30

That's sweetly ironic. I wonder why they were swapped around in English?

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 11:07

@Kantalla wrote:
That's sweetly ironic. I wonder why they were swapped around in English?

Probably happened in the Vowel Shift (Shakespearean era). I'm not a linguist in German languages though.

I kinda like the "Moral phase" ^^ It's the phase where your troops judge all the harm you have let come to them, and decide to leave your army because you are not worthy of commanding them anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 11:12

hahaha
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 11:22

@Kantalla wrote:
On a side note - GW needs a different name for the Morale Phase. Seems like the majority spell it moral, which is something entirely different!

Nobody should ever use the word "Rogue" in a title then, as people seem to be pathologically incapable of spelling it in any way other than r-o-u-g-e. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 12:43

Count - that's just how so many role(!)

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Tue Oct 24 2017, 16:19

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Kantalla wrote:
On a side note - GW needs a different name for the Morale Phase. Seems like the majority spell it moral, which is something entirely different!

Nobody should ever use the word "Rogue" in a title then, as people seem to be pathologically incapable of spelling it in any way other than r-o-u-g-e. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

In French, "rouge" means red. So, everytime a see "rouge" instead of "rogue", I imagine a red rogue instead.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Wed Oct 25 2017, 06:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Nobody should ever use the word "Rogue" in a title then, as people seem to be pathologically incapable of spelling it in any way other than r-o-u-g-e. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

Wait, seriously?

I have never had that problem.
Perks of being Australian?
Or perks of only having friends that are linguistic-nuts, attending university, or never interact with me in a circumstance where writing down the word 'rogue' might come up?

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sat Oct 28 2017, 20:07

Going back to the original question. I've played allot against guard this edition, I find the best way to deal with them is to immediately concede and play against a different army. Maybe it's because I'm new to de or maybe it's my list, but I feel like a helpless child when I play against guard, so I've just stopped playing against them.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sat Oct 28 2017, 20:16

@Menosj wrote:
Going back to the original question. I've played allot against guard this edition, I find the best way to deal with them is to immediately concede and play against a different army.  Maybe it's because I'm new to de or maybe it's my list, but I feel like a helpless child when I play against guard, so I've just stopped playing against them.

This isn't the case anymore. Blobs of Guard infantry are dead. Now they are back to spamming parking lots, and honestly, we are great at clearing parking lots.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sat Oct 28 2017, 20:21

I'd LOVE some advice, I run kabalites in transports, ravagers and flyers, and I can't seem so get past turn 3 without getting tabled. I'm suppose to play a guard buddy tomorrow and I'm dreading it.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sat Oct 28 2017, 20:29

How many points ?

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sat Oct 28 2017, 22:09

Usually I play 2k but tomorrow is just 1250, I've never played guard at less than 2k points
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sun Oct 29 2017, 01:49

My advice in general is : have 1 DL in your army per 100pts Smile
With that, you'll burn his tanks in no time. Conscripts are not a thread anymore due to not being immune to moral anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sun Oct 29 2017, 01:52

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My advice in general is : have 1 DL in your army per 100pts Smile
With that, you'll burn his tanks in no time. Conscripts are not a thread anymore due to not being immune to moral anymore.

This. Guard tanks hit like a ton of bricks, but their 3+ saves are their weakness. I've taken out a Baneblade in a single turn before (Statistically, it takes ~20 Dark Lance's to get the job done, in line with the above formula)

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sun Oct 29 2017, 01:57

And it's fairly easy to do :
- 10 kabs with a DL in a raider with DL : 200ish for 2 DL
- Ravager : 3 DL for 150ish
- etc.

The Kabs also give you some AI shootings that will, now, trigger some moral checks, so are more useful than before Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 30 2017, 05:23

Mppqld I think you blow off guard infantry like it's nothing, I fired 2 full raiders with kabalite warriors and a venom at a 50ish pt 10 man guard squad and it survived, I don't understand how you think guard infantry is not a problem
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 30 2017, 12:52

It's not a problem, because it is nothing compared to what it used to be. Sure, it's kinda hard to get rid of, but it's not immune to moral anymore, and it often deals 50% of the damage it used to deal before.

Pre-codex (and thus pre-nerf), i used to be able to, sometimes, kill blobs of 50 conscripts with commissar and orders and all.

Now that those blobs have gone to 30 man, have lost the commissar, lost the orders... it's just a breeze. Send 10 wyches, eat overwatch with a vehicle, and they all die. Don't trust me ? 10 wyches, without any equipment, kill 8.3 guards. If you add some PGL, some shooting, a raider, etc, they are basically losing 1d6+8 additionnal models. 1 one full turn (2 rounds of combat) you kill a squad of 30 without breaking a sweat.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 30 2017, 13:39

@Menosj wrote:
Mppqld I think you blow off guard infantry like it's nothing, I fired 2 full raiders with kabalite warriors and a venom at a 50ish pt 10 man guard squad and it survived, I don't understand how you think guard infantry is not a problem

"Was" a problem, now "No" longer is a problem.

It still hard to deal with for use if they still field 60 bodies (most still will b.c bubble wrapping), but if you kill 10+ of them in each unit, they now will lose some to moral, where before they didnt (well they lost 1) bow a Roll of a 1 still loses something like 5+ (depending on how many you kill).

B.c of this, the few players that are using guardsman/conscripts are just take a 3 MSU of them now to turn 1 bubble wrap and get the Battalion CP's, most high end players dont take them anymore, its just tanks and more tanks.


They just got nerf a eek ago, make sure your opponent is playing with the new FAQ that just came out.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 30 2017, 15:20

Wyches do super well, had them chewing on scripts yesterday

Also: my guard buddy has taken an Ogryn body guard, made it a character and given it 2 relics. One of which is the vostroyan pistol that acts like summary execution but isn’t called that so it wasn’t nerfed. So he still runs blobs

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 30 2017, 15:23

Ogryns are amazing, i'm expecting them to be meta soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 30 2017, 17:27

@RedRegicide wrote:
Also: my guard buddy has taken an Ogryn body guard, made it a character and given it 2 relics. One of which is the vostroyan pistol that acts like summary execution but isn’t called that so it wasn’t nerfed. So he still runs blobs

You can't give a Character more than one Relic, even using the stratagem. P134 of the IG dex is the stratagem, and it clearly says that.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Wed Nov 08 2017, 02:21

@Mppqlmd wrote:
This isn't the case anymore. Blobs of Guard infantry are dead.  

My infantry guard, on the other hand, is very much alive and well. Very Happy

@amishprn86 wrote:
Ogryns are amazing, i'm expecting them to be meta soon.

I think you mean Bullgryns. Ogryns are pretty mediocre and not that tough.

Bullgryns on the other hand hit hard in combat and there are a ton of tricks to give them amazing saves.


Anyway, as to the problem at hand, I can tell you what gives me pause for thought with my IG infantry army:

- Mobile units. Outside of maybe Tallarn, IG infantry is severely lacking in mobility. Doubly so if it includes Heavy Weapons. My army as a whole is pretty resilient. However, if an opponent can outmanoeuvre me, then they can potentially take out a key flank without me being able to bring the rest of my firepower to bear against them (and take any objectives in that area). It also makes it harder for me to take/contest other objectives, as you can quickly move back to either kill my units on an objectives or else capture/contest one late-game.

- Long range anti-infantry weapons. Especially if they're on relatively mobile platforms. I'm talking about Assault or Heavy weapons here - not Rapid Fire ones. This goes back to the mobility issue - Heavy Weapons notwithstanding, my guardsmen have an optimum range of 12". If you have an optimum range of 24+", then I'm forced to either come to you or else fight at a disadvantage.

- Penalties to hit. Even disregarding the many plasmaguns in my army, going from a 4+ to a 5+ to hit really hurts.


Also, here are some things that don't worry me:

- Melee. My IG have yet to lose to a melee army. You have to come well into my optimum range, often suffering for a turn or two before you get to me, and then I can just feed you some sacrificial squads and blow you to bits with the rest of my army.

- Most 'Elite' units (stuff like Terminators or Grotesques). I find that these almost never have the firepower/attacks to be a meaningful threat - especially since they'll usually struggle to reach/kill more than one infantry squad per turn. And however tough they are, weight of numbers will usually get them in the end.


Of course, this is with my specific list. Others may require different counters, but hopefully this at least gives you a rough idea.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Wed Nov 08 2017, 10:16

@ Shredder

Nice writeup I see the same thing with my starting IG (only got around 800 points or so yet, so things might change at higher point values)

I play foot Talarn and even there I find that I am often less mobile then the enemy, (I really feel the need for rough riders). I agree I rarely worry about elites, the often lack the firepower to make a dent and I am able to just feed them some chaf units. But this also partly comes from the "short optimal range" combined with the large footprint. Sure I can get some guys within 12 inch no problem, but having those 2 or 3 squads I need to kill you all completely within 12 inch is nearly impossible.

I usually move forward with my guard, irrespective of the opponent, either they outshoot me at long range, or they are melee and I need to make sure they cannot just take all the objectives while I kill them.

And yes heavy weapons are a pain, I need them, but they often have to move to be able to shoot choice targets, but then I shoot like an ork.
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