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 Guard Infantry and what to do

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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 17:22

So I've been playing 40k alot recently and mostly against Tau and (of course) Guard. I've been having alot of trouble with the guard, especially the troops themselves and their ability to outshoot (Thanks to orders and 18" rapid fire range) most of my anti-infantry. My lists include alot of dark lancers (raiders, ravagers etc) so my opponent has begun to drop as much armour from their list as possible to negate this.

I'm considering switching to disintegrators to replace the lances as the rate of shots would make my vehicles much more versitile with little loss of damage output against Leman Russ tanks, Dis: 1.11 DL:1.16 wounds per turn. However with the sheer amount of guard units being deployed Im still concerned about my ability to deal with them. Any thoughts or suggestions on good methods to deal with mass infantry guard or hordes in general?
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 18:29

Beasts, particularly Khymera are theoretically good at dealing with Guard, but more often, I find that 95% of them are cut down by lasguns before they can even charge. Poison isn't your best bet, and unless he's fielding Ogryns, Dissies won't make back your points.

I hate to be that guy, but the most effective counter I've found are windriders with some Farseer Support.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 18:38

@TheBaconPope wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but the most effective counter I've found are windriders with some Farseer Support.

To expand on this further; Windriders with a Farseer and Yvraine.

If you've got a big group of Windriders, she's essentially 130 points to double the number of shots that they can take per turn. Well worth the price.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 18:40

Mandrakes, IF you make the charge, are apparently the most efficient GEQ killing we have.

Other than that, good luck lol.

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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 18:50

I refuse to go so low to get assistance from the craftworlds!

But in all seriousness I only have access to Dark Eldar and really dont want to use out of faction units to solve problems. There must be something able to deal with this kind of massed infantry. Its been made painfully clear that poison isnt worth it these days and with comissars and commanders all throughout the lines morale isnt an option for causing any significant damage either.

Massed mandrakes could be useful if used on flanks but with the amount of units its going to be hard to get in range of anything they can kill worth the points I would spend on them. I've seen what a massed Guard gunline with orders left and right can do.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 19:08

There is, kind of, but we don't have it.

I wouldn't classify poison as "not worth it". It's still good, just not against T3. The current meta just revolves around hordes.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 19:50

My left field answer is Urien Rakarth and a Cronos or two. Head straight for the infantry and tie them up while very slowly killing them.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 20:39

@Kantalla wrote:
My left field answer is Urien Rakarth and a Cronos or two. Head straight for the infantry and tie them up while very slowly killing them.

And how do you tie them?
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Thu Oct 19 2017, 21:13

To you people with more knowledge, would some Venoms and a Heami do the trick ? Making them T6 for that 6+ to wound for the Las and -1 to hit. Having greater range and being hard to deal with for the normal guardsman you could focus down all the things that have a range grater than 32" with the Lances then just run around him.

Now! I haven't faced that huge blob of guardsmen yet so this is how I would do for a start with the things i own. But you will most likely not kill enough to make the points back with kills alone, since you'll probably only kill 1.3 guardsmen per 95p venom per turn if you're at range>18. But then it would also require (If I mathed right) 216 lasgun shots to kill a venom, and thats alot of guardsmen. So with your greater mobility you could win on Victory Conditions, maybe.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Fri Oct 20 2017, 02:02

dumpeal - you tie them up by charging back in after they fall back. With the Cronos kills counteracting many of the wounds you take.

The Venom option is a good one as well, especially against Conscripts as they would need 432 Lasgun shots to down a Venom.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Fri Oct 20 2017, 02:54

I'd like to try covens against them. Fingers crossed the codex makes them more viable.
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lmrz
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Fri Oct 20 2017, 09:07

Raider full of Incubi, or Starweaver full of Harlequins. Profit.
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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Fri Oct 20 2017, 20:08

Ynnari Sslyth.

It'll work until they take Slabshield Bullgryns and do it MUCH better.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Fri Oct 20 2017, 20:26

dude, rakarth and a full footslogging units of grots. T6 laughs at lasguns and he will be forced to fire antitank stuff at them, winwin. last game i had them eat a million shots from a billion conscripts. tehlulz
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Fri Oct 20 2017, 22:26

Well here's a question ... Does he place his order givers at the back of his troops or in the middle? If at the back then I would suggest reavers or hellions ( with +2 move) they have the movement to jump over the intervening troops and charge the order givers (I've done this to marvelous effect) and then proceed to kill the slightly less effective guardsmen or think up a different strategy but running right at them with Razorwing flocks followed by clawed fiends and then coven might be the best head on approach for pure DE
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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sat Oct 21 2017, 15:47

Unfortunately 91 he is an experienced player and I have only managed to get the drop on his commander once, thanks to great positioning of my flyer. And he has learned to quickly targetdown my fastest moving units with massed fire as he knows they are the few things which can keep up with how fast his normal gaurdsmen can now move...thanks gw for those orders :/
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sun Oct 22 2017, 01:01

Ah ... Well that sucks ... Looks like walking into them with coven is the best way to handle it at the moment ... Though if guard are using "move move move" they should not be shooting that turn ...
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Lyceus
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sun Oct 22 2017, 08:43

My last game vs guard my opponent had 80 conscripts. Looking back at the game he did not fire once with them. Only move move move. He also did not kill so much because i outranged his 2 tanks in the back. But he had celestine who killed one vehicle per turn and the conscripts moved fast up to spread all over the first half of the battlefield. Enough for him to win the mission. What a weird game strategic looking backwards.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Sun Oct 22 2017, 18:17

I've seen success with a big unit of Ynnari Incubi with the Yncarne nearby.
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 03:40

Grotesques and Wracks have done me well with conscript blobs in the past. I'd also suggest (assuming we're talking some weak 5+ shooting...) softening a massive unit up, then charging with a venom, particularly with a heamonculous for 1+ Toughness, ties up their shooting allowing you to A) get another more melee-specific unit into hand-to-hand, and/or B) forces the IG player to use a voice of command to allow that unit to fallback and shoot at you. Again, I find coven units with increased toughness a good route.

Additionally, I don't HATE the liquifiers and shredders for those units. You're hitting (D6 shots) automatically with liquifiers and generally wounding on a 4+ with the potential to have -3AP; and you have the potential of 3 shots generally at 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound with the shredder, and it allows you to re-roll failed wound rolls on infantry units.

Hope this helps!

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 10:57

The problem with Grots, Liquefiers and Shredders are not (mostly) the stats, but the price.

Anyway, now that Commissars are nerfed to the ground, "Send in the next wave" got corrected and rendered useless, and with the "4+ to receive an order", Conscripts blobs are no longer meta.

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 13:41

It's changed again though now, killing a dude doesn't give auto pass morale, its a re-roll for morale according to new FAQ if i read that correctly, so yeah conscripts are gone and done, that meta is dead.
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Lyceus
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 18:44

Omg. Finally. I like the change a lot. Its a very weird rule now but they deserve it.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 18:50

@Lyceus wrote:
Omg. Finally. I like the change a lot. Its a very weird rule now but they deserve it.

It's a useless rule you mean. It hurts them more often than it helps them. But you're right, it's probably deserved ^^

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Guard Infantry and what to do   Mon Oct 23 2017, 21:11

Mm it's more or less a second chance if your roll really high on moral to roll lower ... In effect the execution keeps some guardsmen in line while other still say screw it and run off, how it shoulda worked in the first place
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