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 Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 03:54

So from leaks and estimates, we can safely say that Uthwe storm guardians are going to point and laugh at wyches. It is trivially easy to give them 2+ to hit rerolling 1s. They can also get +1 to wound and rerolling failed wounds. All this from a mix of warlock and farseer powers and having a nearby Autarch. On top of that they can pop a stratagem that gives them a 4++ save.And they can have a couple of power swords in the squad to add some extra oomph.

This is while being cheaper than Wyches. Amazing what some force multipliers will do huh?
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 05:18

This probably belongs in Craftworlds etc, if the point is to discuss CWE/Asuryani goodness. If the point is instead obliquely to say again we are poorer for having no codex yet, isn't there another topic about that just below and isn't that enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 05:19

I find force multipliers for Asuryani interesting, and hope that's a sign we will get better ones once our codex rolls around.

To get the buffs you are describing, you need:
Discipline of the Black Guardians (1 CP)
Autarch
Warlock/Spiritseer with Empower (WC6)
Farseer with Doom (WC7)
Celestial Shield (1CP)

That is a lot of points in support characters, as well as multiple psychic powers and command points to support Guardians. It makes them a legitimate threat, but I don't think you can still claim cheaper than Wyches at that point.

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 05:40

@FuelDrop wrote:
So from leaks and estimates, we can safely say that Uthwe storm guardians are going to point and laugh at wyches. It is trivially easy to give them 2+ to hit rerolling 1s. They can also get +1 to wound and rerolling failed wounds. All this from a mix of warlock and farseer powers and having a nearby Autarch. On top of that they can pop a stratagem that gives them a 4++ save.And they can have a couple of power swords in the squad to add some extra oomph.

This is while being cheaper than Wyches. Amazing what some force multipliers will do huh?


2+ to hit (we also have it from turn3+)
reroll 1 (we also have it from a succubus)
+1 to wound (in most cases equal to s4, although I admit it is sometimes better, usually 1 extra attack is better which we can have instead of the s4)
rerolling failed wounds (we only have this for 1/5 -3/10 of the squad but with an ap-1)
4++ save (we have it in combat)
Conclusion: we have most of their bonusses as well without waisting warlock/farseer powers and without stratagems, our tax comes that it is only this way from turn 3+ instead of needing 2 additional HQ (with a chance of failing the powers) and spending 2 command points a turn to keep this up.

I am not saying guardians are not better for their points than wyches, but all units from codexes are slightly better then equavalent index units.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 05:43

Or just another warlock with the +1 to hit psyker power instead of DotBG.

The problem I am highlighting is that even with a million points of support Wyches are never getting close to that threat level.

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 06:34

I am not saying you are wrong.
But in big battles I usually prefer to rely on other things then psychic powers. Sure you could buff 1 unit to the moon, but the other 12 units in your army then are failing.

Yes we cannot buf the 1 unit to extreme heights.
Now try buffing 3 guardian units to be equal to wyches.
Those 3 wych units all hit on 2+ and can all reroll 1s to hit, and all can have some guys rerolling to wound.
But of those 3 guardian units all will reroll 1s to hit, but most will hit on 3+, most will not have +1 to wound, most will not reroll to wound, most will not have a 4++ most will not be equal to wyches.

Yes I sometimes also miss the support that psykers bring, but personally I think it helps distinguish between craftworld and Eldar. Craftworld are great at buffing something, but all of us are better and more dependable most of the time. And yes with a million points support we cannot get as good as the psyker heavy army. So if you want deathstars play craftworld, if you want all of your troops to hit resonably hard play dark Eldar.

And remember in your excample you just spend around 4 times the points cost of the guardians on support. This will rarely be viable in real games in my experience. It does mean that if things go wrong to bring it back again. But this is not how dark eldar should play.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 09:05

Quote :
The problem I am highlighting is that even with a million points of support Wyches are never getting close to that threat level.


Honestly, Ulthwe guardians we will utter crap. I can't see the point of spending all those resources (Auras, psychic powers, stratagems) to get such an unefficient unit.

At least, Wyches are already at the same level of mediocrity, but without needing any support. That's something

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 10:09

And they can do the same thing for banshees. Or Shining Spears. or Wraithblades. We can do none of the above for Incubi, Reavers or Grotesques.

I was trying to highlight how much they can improve even the humblest unit in their codex should they be in the right place at the right time. We have... put the Succubus Nearby (if its a cult unit) and wait till next turn and hope that it's turn 3.

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 10:29

I agree with you on that point (well except the reavers, since reavers can have nearly the same bonusses as wyches except +1 str).

That being said I don't think we need to have the same bonusses as other armies, but at least give us something that makes us distinct and has a real gameplay effect besides open topped vehicles carboard boxes.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 12:36

And in a bizarre, inexplicable way, despite the access to all that Force Multipliers

- Incubi trump Banshees
- Wyches trump Black Guardians (and that says something)
- Ravagers trump Falcons or Nightspinners or Warwalkers

The only 2 units (so non-HQ) currently (Index meta) valid and legitimately powerful in the entire CW index (not counting Forgeworld) are : reapers and Shining spears. CW needed a codex as fast as possible. To put things in perspective, Index CW was unplayable outside of Ynnari, and even with Ynnari they resumed to a handful of units.

It's very nice to be able to say "we have access to powerful buffs for our infantry", but when your infantry is THAT tragically overpriced and underpowered, it doesn't make for a good army. I repeat my statement : Banshees need HQ support to achieve the level of power that incubi got stock. Guardians need HQ support to achieve the level of power that wyches got stock.


And the funniest part is : so far, the 2 doctrines revealed were extremely lackluster. Don't fool yourself with the "Ermagurd 60 attacks with so many rerolls and 1d3 damage". Putting that "shiny little combo" into play costs an entire army (around 1000pts) for something that will work once per game, damage your troops, works on a slow set of units and requires a TON of HQ support. Compare that to the level of power the DG is able to put consistently out, everyturn, on cheap units, while taking no damage at all, and AT RANGE, and you realize that, with the info we currently have, CW are still tragically underpowered.

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 12:59

@Mppqlmd wrote:
And in a bizarre, inexplicable way, despite the access to all that Force Multipliers

- Incubi trump Banshees
- Wyches trump Black Guardians (and that says something)
- Ravagers trump Falcons or Nightspinners or Warwalkers

The only 2 units (so non-HQ) currently (Index meta) valid and legitimately powerful in the entire CW index (not counting Forgeworld) are : reapers and Shining spears. CW needed a codex as fast as possible. To put things in perspective, Index CW was unplayable outside of Ynnari, and even with Ynnari they resumed to a handful of units.

It's very nice to be able to say "we have access to powerful buffs for our infantry", but when your infantry is THAT tragically overpriced and underpowered, it doesn't make for a good army. I repeat my statement : Banshees need HQ support to achieve the level of power that incubi got stock. Guardians need HQ support to achieve the level of power that wyches got stock.


And the funniest part is : so far, the 2 doctrines revealed were extremely lackluster. Don't fool yourself with the "Ermagurd 60 attacks with so many rerolls and 1d3 damage". Putting that "shiny little combo" into play costs an entire army (around 1000pts) for something that will work once per game, damage your troops, works on a slow set of units and requires a TON of HQ support. Compare that to the level of power the DG is able to put consistently out, everyturn, on cheap units, while taking no damage at all, and AT RANGE, and you realize that, with the info we currently have, CW are still tragically underpowered.

Don't get me wrong, I am EXTREMELY disappointed with the CWE leaks so far. Uthwe's trait is not merely unfluffy but arguably a debuff, as it gives them something they can get through other means easily (thus an opportunity cost against getting a better trait) but more importantly, it renders Fortune completely useless army wide. So would you rather have a 5+++ save on the vital unit that really needs it when it really needs it, or a 6+++ on everything in a glass cannon army?

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 13:08

It's a bit early to call things useless. We don't know if Fortune has had its wording changed yet, and considering that its current wording is needlessly vague I certainly hope that it has.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 14:03

I am not keen on none "Dark" Eldar having a 6++

It just doesn't feel right.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 14:21

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I am not keen on none "Dark" Eldar having a 6++

It just doesn't feel right.

I'm not keen on any non-coven eldar having 6+++. We're fast and deadly, not walking tanks.

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Wed Oct 18 2017, 20:00

A 6+++ doesn't make you a walking tank - it makes for the occasional lucky missed wound.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 05:56

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I am not keen on none "Dark" Eldar having a 6++

It just doesn't feel right.

I'm not keen on any non-coven eldar having 6+++. We're fast and deadly, not walking tanks.

I agree with krayd here. A 6+++ does not make you a walking tank and we are still squishy as frak.
And considering we fasten our armour with hooks on the inside for extra adreneline rush I would say we are actually quite though and used to pain that a little flesh wound which might take out a guardsmen or craftworlder get's ignored by us.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 09:00

But still...Guardians shouldn't have a 6++
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 09:57

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
But still...Guardians shouldn't have a 6++

The Iconic Guardian force (Uthwe) should most certainly not have 6++ as their ability. It shows a complete lack of imagination on the part of the designers. Biel-Tan's ability is FAR better for Uthwe than Uthwe's ability is for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 10:21

I agree it is not fluffy at all...I feel a little concerned that if they can make a mess of Codex:Craftworld then they could easily butcher the DE!

I am hoping for forced morale tests and negative LD modifiers for us...among other things of course. Can you imagine how morale tests with modifiers might help us deal with hordes? I havent thought it through but I can imagine GW could make it work well for us.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 11:36

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I am hoping for forced morale tests and negative LD modifiers for us...among other things of course.  Can you imagine how morale tests with modifiers might help us deal with hordes?  I havent thought it through but I can imagine GW could make it work well for us.

Only if they also negate the inbuilt protection that most hordes have from Ld shenanigans. I'm really not sure why GW is so dead set against morale being a factor in 40K. Why not just get rid of it completely rather than wasting time and effort building a system and then making vast swathes of the units in the game immune to it!

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 12:18

Yes that's right they our use of the morale phase would have to negate commissars, mob rule etc

Rather than force a morale test that can be defended against with commissars, mob rule etc, perhaps we had some rules that caused damage to Infantry based on a simple LD test...which means you can avoid rules that specifically help units in the Morale phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 13:56

Quote :
Rather than force a morale test that can be defended against with commissars, mob rule etc, perhaps we had some rules that caused damage to Infantry based on a simple LD test...which means you can avoid rules that specifically help units in the Morale phase.

Perhaps something like a leadership based smite? Fail and take d3 Mortal Wounds, fail by a factor of x and take d6?

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 14:19

As Dark Elf Dave pointed out, Leadership shenanigans (aka Freakshow) lists could work if there were a mechanism that causes casualties outside of the morale test. A weapon that wounds vs Leadership might be nice, as that can take advantage of Ld penalties but still leave existing morale mechanics in place (which they're not going to change).

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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 14:45

I think it is a cool idea for how we could compete with Hordes...like another version of Trophies that we used to have.

Perhaps a rule such as any Infantry unit within 12" of a Gruesome Trophy must take a LD test. Roll a D6 and subtract the targets LD from the score...the resulting score is the number of mortal wounds taken by the unit. Always apply -2 to the targets LD.

This would tie in really well with other units that effect LD making their presence more important. It doesnt seem like enough damage at first, but I am just thinking out loud I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches   Thu Oct 19 2017, 18:19

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Yes that's right they our use of the morale phase would have to negate commissars, mob rule etc

Rather than force a morale test that can be defended against with commissars, mob rule etc, perhaps we had some rules that caused damage to Infantry based on a simple LD test...which means you can avoid rules that specifically help units in the Morale phase.

Give DE a stratagem that prevents enemies from lowering casualties through abilities.
Boom, morale is back as a mechanic.

Concentrate fire on one big blob, prevent enemy ld protection and see the rest crumble in the morale phase.


I would love more weapons, especially ones that deal morale damage but knowing GW they won't introduce new weapons without new kits. Even-though we are really in need of more and better special weapons.

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