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 Fortune and spirit stones

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Archonon
Slave
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Join date : 2017-01-11

PostSubject: Fortune and spirit stones   Tue Oct 17 2017, 14:17

Dear all,

My question concerns the conflict between the spell "fortune" and the wargear "spirit stones", let us explain it:

Recall the revelant part of the spell fortune:
Quote :

Until your next Psychic phase, whenever that unit suffers a wound, roll a D6. On a 5+ that wound is ignored. If a unit already has an ability with similar effect (e.g. the Avatar of Khaine's Molten Body ability) this psychic power does not affect them.

Same for the Spirit stones:
Quote :

Roll a D6 each time this model suffers an unsaved wound or mortal wound: on a 6 the wound is ignored

And the Molten body to compare:
Quote :

Roll a D6 whenever the avatar of Khaine suffers a wound or mortal wound. On a 5+ that wound is ingored.

The question is: can i use both the fortune's roll and the spirit stones' roll ?
My answer is yes and my arguments are the following:

  1. The spirit stones are not an ability but a wargear, then the exception in fortune does not apply.
  2. Even if we consider the spirit stone as a wargear with an ability (in contradiction with the wording and the F.A.Q about the storm shield), the ability of the spirit stones is not similar to those of the Molten Body and fortune. In particular, the spirit stones' roll is done for an unsaved wound, i.e. after the save's roll. In contrast, the Molten Body and fortune's roll which apply after the wound is attributed to a model and before the save's roll since after the save sequence no "wound" keyword is used in the rules book.
  3. Moreover, if the Molten body's roll has to be done at the same time as the fortune's roll and deserves an exception, this is not the case of the spirit stones' roll since there is no confusion in the hit resolution sequence. (n.b. This point is not totally independent fo the previous).


Am I right ? Am I an evil Harlequin ?
Thanks in advance for your pertinent and constructive answers.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Tue Oct 17 2017, 14:39

We've had various discussions over when a wound is suffered/lost and at what point do these various abilities kick in. In my opinion, the only viable sequence for such abilities, is that a wound is suffered when any relevant save has been failed and damage has been rolled (for abilities that inflict multiple wounds). The model suffers/loses one wound for each point of damage. At this point, the various abilities that offer a 'secondary save', such as Disgustingly Resilient, Molten Body, Inured to Suffering, Fortune etc are rolled, with one roll per wound suffered.

In most cases, you can make several such rolls as long as they are from different abilities. So, for example, if you have an Archon as your Warlord and he has both Inured to Suffering (from PfP) and the Tenacious Survivor Warlord Trait, you could roll 2 dice for each wound suffered and the wound would be negated if either roll was a 6. Fortune does not however work on any unit that already has such an ability so you could not cast Fortune on our Archon (even if you could cast it on a non-Asuryani unit) as he already has a similar ability both from his warlord trait and PfP.

I also don't think you'll have much luck arguing that these are not similar abilities, as your argument is that they work at different times but in fact they work at the same time, as explained above.

EDIT - New Ulthwe Craftworld attribute also makes mention of similar abilities that seem to match what I've said above:


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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Tue Oct 17 2017, 18:16

@Count : Does your anwser implies that Succubus & Haemies could have 2D6+++ instead of one for unsaved wounds ?

That would make them more resilient (especially the haemy..) but sounds kinda broken to me, especially if you can stack them multiples times..

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Wed Oct 18 2017, 04:58

Yeah. New Uthwe ability is going to render fortune useless.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Wed Oct 18 2017, 05:45

Depends on the wording of fortune.

Considering they are supposed to be master psyckers I can see fortune becoming an 6+ or giving a +1 if you already have a similar ability?
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Wed Oct 18 2017, 06:24

Well ifthey don't change the wording it explicitly has no effect, not even overriding it. Looks like Uthwe will be the weakest craftworld for psykers due to no buffs and Fortune being useless to them. I am less than happy with this.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Wed Oct 18 2017, 14:36

@masamune wrote:
@Count : Does your anwser implies that Succubus & Haemies could have 2D6+++ instead of one for unsaved wounds ?

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's even been confirmed somewhere by GW, although I don't have time at the moment to look that up.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune and spirit stones   Thu Oct 19 2017, 00:22

No prob, I've been here enough to trust you on your word (or at least getting @ at some point haha).

Thanks Smile

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