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 Are Blastborn worth using

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Darkin
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PostSubject: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 12:52

so I had a little conversation with @Mppqlmd and he said he doesn't use like using Blastborn in Venoms
I saw many people with tournament list Spam Venom-Blastborn tho
so are they worth using or are there better alternatives
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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 13:14

I guess it depends? Rest of the army, play style and opponent. I tend to not use them, though I have done in the past and to be fair they're not bad. Just roughly going off average cost for the two units you could get a Ravager/ Reaper.

Though the Ravager is more reliable in it's indefinite number of shots compared to the Reaper, The Reaper does have the potential for up too 6 equivalent lance shots. But also that it has a secondary fire mode making it more versatile. But then there is the downfall that it's only the Reaper that suffers penalties for moving and shooting. Though the Reaper does have more wounds, better combat and is 5 points cheaper oddly. To further back up why either of these two is a "better" choice, they have greater range and a higher damage potential. Though both units lack the extra shots and I guess better combat potential of the Trueborn and Venom combined. Though I think they both outweigh that downfall.

Overall I would prefer one of the two units I've mentioned above.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 13:31

The answer to your question, unfortunately is 'yes, and yes'
They are worth using, and there are probably better options*

*Depending on your goals and playstyle.

Blasterborn are probably most often contested by Scourges, who functionally do the same thing, and by (in my troll opinion) Ravagers who also do the same thing and blatantly do it better. The thing is, generally, people take max Ravagers and then want more Ravagers (in which case they should then take Razorwings Wink ) but let's say you've maxed out both o fthose and still want more anti-mech blasty tech, then you have to look at the Blasterborn and the Scourges (and, in my even more troll opinion - basic Warriors).

Scourges are cheaper (since they won't need a Venom or a Raider).
They have Deep Strike which is arguably better mobility than anything the Blasterborn are doing.
They then will have jump packs, which is again a massive mobility boost.
They have better saves.

But what the Trueborn bring to the field is that they do need a vehicle, and spending points on the Venom or Raider is almost always a solid idea as our vehicles are actually really good.
Being in a vehicle also gives the Trueborn a noted survivability boost as you'll need to kill the vehicle before you can kill them, and I don't think anyone with half a brain would try to argue that Scourges can survive better than a Venom.

So, at the end of the day, what you tend to have is - one is cheaper, the other is more durable and brings the added shooting of a vehicle to the board.

People also argue the lance option over the blaster option (though at this stage Trueborn can become cheaper as, with a lance they really could be fielded without a vehicle) but generally the points above also apply the same to the Lance option as the Blaster option.

I have seen people field Blasterborn and do quite well.
I myself, and others, have opted not to use Blasterborn and do quite well.

So I don't think they're an obligatory option for us, like say the Ravager/Razorwing universe where I think you're objectively daft not to field them.
But they're certainly a functional use of points, and they won't make a list bad.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 19:04

It's true that a Venom gives good mobility and durability for Trueborn. You have a -1 to hit, a 5++ and 6 wounds. 4 Blasterborn in a Venom costs 195 points.

You know what has the same rules as a Venoms, but at T6 and 12 wounds? A Voidraven for 196 points.

Get the Dark Scythes and enjoy your 4 Blaster shots (on average) at a convenient range of 24". And don't forget the Void Mine for a potential 7 (!) mortal wounds on an enemy 10 man unit.

The way I see it, the Voidraven is our best answer for heavy infantry and outperforms any other dedicated Blaster platform.


Similarly, for 190 points you get 10 Mandrakes for 20 shots and 31 melee attacks. Wait for turn 3, deep strike them in and shoot your enemy. Then, have a subsequent charge and fight at BS2. I love my Mandrakes in this edition.

On average, you can expect 4 dead MEQ in the shooting and fighting phase each.

I wouldn't say Blasterborn are bad, but there are certainly better options. And honestly I deem Blasters to be weapons of opportunity for Kabalites/Archons that excels at anti heavy infantry. If you take them for anti tank, you'll be disappointed.

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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 19:19

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
It's true that a Venom gives good mobility and durability for Trueborn. You have a -1 to hit, a 5++ and 6 wounds. 4 Blasterborn in a Venom costs 195 points.

You know what has the same rules as a Venoms, but at T6 and 12 wounds? A Voidraven for 196 points.

Get the Dark Scythes and enjoy your 4 Blaster shots (on average) at a convenient range of 24". And don't forget the Void Mine for a potential 7 (!) mortal wounds on an enemy 10 man unit.

The way I see it, the Voidraven is our best answer for heavy infantry and outperforms any other dedicated Blaster platform.


Similarly, for 190 points you get 10 Mandrakes for 20 shots and 31 melee attacks. Wait for turn 3, deep strike them in and shoot your enemy. Then, have a subsequent charge and fight at BS2. I love my Mandrakes in this edition.

On average, you can expect 4 dead MEQ in the shooting and fighting phase each.

I wouldn't say Blasterborn are bad, but there are certainly better options. And honestly I deem Blasters to be weapons of opportunity for Kabalites/Archons that excels at anti heavy infantry. If you take them for anti tank, you'll be disappointed.
okay i wont buy like 3 voidravens in the near futur but what do you think about scourges?
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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 19:53

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
It's true that a Venom gives good mobility and durability for Trueborn. You have a -1 to hit, a 5++ and 6 wounds. 4 Blasterborn in a Venom costs 195 points.

You know what has the same rules as a Venoms, but at T6 and 12 wounds? A Voidraven for 196 points.
I don't play Blasterborn because I think there are a lot of things that do what they do better.
I also don't play the Voidraven because I consider it an inferior option to a number of other things.
I am guardedly willing to agree that the two are similar - though I think the Blasterborn have a decent argument for having better reliability and lack of movement restrictions.

I'll agree with you that Blasters are an excellent tool for heavy infantry, but do not agree that they are a poor choice for anti vehicle/MC work. If the lance is good (and it is, it is arguably one of the single best anti mech weapons in the game today) then a weapon that is a lance lite is certainly at least decent against vehicles (and awesome vs. Crons) and I would not suggest that people would be disappointed unless they wanted/expected a Blaster to equal a full lance - in which case, yeah, disappointment ahoy Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 20:34

@Darkin wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
...
okay i wont buy like 3 voidravens in the near futur but what do you think about scourges?

Scourges are great... depending on the circumstances. But what do you really need?
Every army needs a strong core that can answer threats in your meta. Kabalites are still solid AI choices (unless facing spam), Ravagers are excellent for your main AT. And there are other good picks too that cover most of your usul threat coverage.
But on top of this, I like having a small group of versatile side units (like Archon + Medusae in a Venom, 10 Mandrakes or a Beast squad).

I consider Scourges to be among the versatile group of units. They have great offensive power for reasonable power cost and their deep striking is gold. But because of their durability you can't count on them making living enough to be reliable. If you screw up, they die in the next turn of shooting.

If the bulk of your army is an anvil, units like Scourges are your scalpels that can eliminate critical enemy units when the opporunity arises (like exposed HQs or wounded tanks).

If you can field Scourges 18" away from your enemy without being punished for it, go for Blasters. But I found Lances to work better because the 36" range is far more forgiving. And with a good position they might not even need to move after deep striking.

@Thor666
No argument here, I agree that Blasters are still solid as secondary AT and they are a really good weapon overall. I simply prefer them as weapon of opportunity on Venom Kabalites or an Archon rather than something to build a strategy around.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Mon Oct 16 2017, 22:13

Thor's assessment is absolutely spot on.

Trueborn are reasonably good against vehicles, monsters and multi-wound infantry, but Ravagers and Razorwings will outperform them, both in points efficiency and durability. Kabalites are better than them against light targets.

I thought the Voidraven comparison was interesting, and they do have similar damage output, with the durability edge to the Voidraven. As much as I love the aesthetics of the Voidraven, I take it in my lists knowing there are more efficient options out there.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Tue Oct 17 2017, 02:05

@Thor665 wrote:

I don't play Blasterborn because I think there are a lot of things that do what they do better.
I also don't play the Voidraven because I consider it an inferior option to a number of other things.


So it's slightly off topic for the title of the thread but...

What does the same job as the Voidraven/Blasterborn, but more efficiently? All I can think of are maybe... Incubi? Clawed Fiends? Blaster Scourge?

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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Tue Oct 17 2017, 03:37

For a detailed answer to your question - here is my analysis of the points efficiency of each option in the Drukhari index:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16559-drukhari-damage-output-analysis
Ravagers and Razorwings are the main answer if you want something with the resilience of a vehicle, but there are other options too.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Tue Oct 17 2017, 12:40

I'm still using my blasterborns, as they are pretty fast & pretty versatile.

You can use them against vehicules, bad positionned characters & even classic meq in cover.

Not the must take it used to be but still pretty efficient IMO.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Blastborn worth using   Tue Oct 17 2017, 12:51

@Chippen wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:

I don't play Blasterborn because I think there are a lot of things that do what they do better.
I also don't play the Voidraven because I consider it an inferior option to a number of other things.


So it's slightly off topic for the title of the thread but...

What does the same job as the Voidraven/Blasterborn, but more efficiently? All I can think of are maybe... Incubi? Clawed Fiends? Blaster Scourge?
Well, first off I suppose one would need to classify what one sees as the "job" of Blasterborn and Voidravens.

Since you're saying Blasterborn, and not Trueborn I think you're meaning the "job" of Blasters and will answer as such, though I'm not certain why you think Clawed Fiends fill the job of Blasters, as I love Clawed Fiends but I don't use them for the jobs I'd give to Blasters. Could you expand on that? Is it just the multi-wound effect?

To answer your question - first off, yeah, Scourges are an excellent place to start since, as noted, you can get more shots for much cheaper. So, cheaper weapons = more weapons = better at the job in a general sense.

We also have the Disintegrator Cannon, which is an awesome weapon available on Razorwings, Raiders, and Ravagers. As noted, the Ravager is a great vehicle, and at 185 with 3 Dissies is cheaper than the Voidraven and able to punch out a vastly more reliable and likely more deadly arsenal of offense. More reliability and cheaper, again, winning me over from the Voidraven.

If I think that the Ravager losing out on the +1 to hit is an issue (I don't, but for the sake of analysis) then the Razorwing leaps to the fore. Less Dissie shots for a similar pricepoint (though cheaper than a Ravager, and also cheaper than a Voidraven or Blasterborn) it is certainly competitive with the Voidraven on survivability (with the way the stat depreciation works I'd actually argue it's superior for its cost) and with the addition of the missiles and a TL s.rifle in exchange for the lost Dissie it maintains a solid damage output even compared to the Ravager, as the missiles bring a solid customization option to it (though I do think it loses a step vs. mech for a gained step vs. infantry - the value of this is one of local meta/what you're already bringing which is why I prefer the Ravager myself, but both are awesome vehicles)

By the time I'm bringing 3x of each of those, I generally am left with very little reason (or spare points) to wish to bring in a tertiary inferior option of the Voidraven, though the very affordable Scourges start to slip in as a viable win at this stage, as their decreased cost offsets their decreased survivability while not costing me any decrease in damage output making them the obvious win for inclusion.

I do also field Incubi and/or Beasts in my lists, and if I wish to tangle up elite troops or mobs, they are often used for that - so maybe that fills your idea of them? Though I'd take them over a Voidraven any day as they serve as actual impediments to enemy board control and thus are more valuable to me than a Voidraven would be, and for my money they serve totally different purposes.

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