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 Soulburst timing, enemy disembark

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PFI
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PostSubject: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Mon Oct 16 2017, 04:09

Evening,

My question relates to the timing sequence of soulburst.

Let's create a hypothetical situation, on my turn, starting with an enemy vehicle that has an embarked unit like a razorback. Then lets have a friendly unit of Ynnari Hellions within 7" of it. A tertiary unit, say dark reapers shoots and then destroys the razorback.

Now, soulburst triggers immediately when a unit is completely destroyed and disembarking from a destroyed vehicle happens immediately after it is destroyed. The rulebook makes no distinction between destroyed and completely destroyed so I'm inclined to see no difference. It is my turn so I am assuming that sequencing would allow my hellions to soulburst after i destroy the transport, surround it and then when the enemy unit disembarks, it has no where to be placed and is destroyed. Is this correct?

Now the faq has two possibly relevant highlights. The first is that I resolve the action completely before i make a soulburst. However when I resolve a shooting attack, the rulebook using the word resolve has numbered steps and the last step is inflict damage where it says if a unit reaches 0 wounds, it is destroyed. No additional steps afterwards so I have resolved every step. Fighting for example has consolidate listed as a step to resolve and therefore would require a unit to consolidate before the soulburst. Therefore I don't see this as limiting my soulburst before the unit disembarks.

The second FAQ is that a unit cannot soulburst when its own transport is destroyed. This is because the unit isn't on the table when the vehicle has been destroyed and so any rules it has are not relevant until after it has been placed. You only keep the vehicle model itself there as reference for measurements. It was already treated as destroyed. Therefore I don't see this as limiting my action either.

If someone has an alternate point of view I would love to hear it. No one wants to win a game and be accused of cheating afterwards or something. I'm just not sure anything I've read would lead me to believe that the unit has to disembark before I can soulburst.

Thanks for all your help and input.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Mon Oct 16 2017, 05:34

The disembarking happens before the removal of the model (i think), so i think it would also happen before the soulburst.

Not sure at all, though. It's a very interesting question.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Mon Oct 16 2017, 05:49

My instinct would be to agree with Mppqlmd's approach, as the no Soulburst when Disembarking provides some guidance on how the sequencing should go. However, it is in the marginal territory for sure.

Apart from that, the player who's turn it is would decide which simultaneous event happens first, so if it is their turn, presumably they would prefer to disembark first then soulburst. If it was happening in your turn (due to a soulburst on the Dark Reapers) then you would prefer to move in first.

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Mon Oct 16 2017, 06:16

The transport rule says the disembark happens before the transport model is removed. The last step of shooting is removing models that are reduced to 0 wounds from play. I would therefore argue that the transport being destroyed (in the sense of being reduced to 0 wounds) happens before the unit disembarks, but the unit will have disembarked before the transport model is removed from play, therefore happening before the shooting action is fully resolved, thereby making this (sadly) impossible.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Mon Oct 16 2017, 10:37

I think the FAQ alludes rto this, although doesn"t say specifically:

Page 76
– Strength from Death
Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘That unit can immediately do one of the following,
even if it has already done so in this turn (if the unit
was destroyed as the result of a unit’s action – e.g.
making a shooting attack or fighting – the Soulburst
action is resolved after the unit has completely resolved
its current action, e.g. after it has completed all of
its shooting attacks or after it has finished fighting,
including making any consolidation moves).’

What it looks like to me is that an action - shooting attack, etc) must be completely resolved before the Soulbrust is triggered. So the shot has to happen, casualties removed, and any other effects of that resolved as well, before the Soulburst can trigger.
So your shot would hit the Razorback, and destroy it, and all results of that including Explosions, possible chains of Explosions, and Disembark would happen before Soulburst could be triggered.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Mon Oct 16 2017, 19:46

I agree with all the points above. The unit disembarks before the vehicle is removed, therefore it takes place before the soulburst
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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Tue Oct 17 2017, 02:27

I can see it's certainly grey territory and it really all comes down to what Games Workshop means by completely resolve or whether the soulburst happens when the model is removed. I imagine for simplicity it would simply be no, the models disembark first.

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst timing, enemy disembark   Thu Oct 19 2017, 16:47

Removing models that are reduced to 0 wounds is part of step 5 ("Inflict damage") of section 4 ("Resolve attacks") of the Shooting sequence, so you could only do it if you could argue that the shooting action is "completely resolved" despite not having finished the last step of the Shooting sequence. Because the transport rule states that disembarking happens before the model is removed, it must happen during the Shooting sequence and before it is resolved, because removing the model happens in the Shooting sequence.
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