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 Nids have my Speed

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Nids have my Speed   Fri Oct 13 2017, 00:12

So my other army is Tyrannids, and I took them in a game last Sat.

20 Geenstealers + Swarlord is ridiculously fast. I rolled really well, got a 4 on the first advance roll and a 5 on the second one. 11 for the charge. That meant in total they moved 36" on the first turn.

This is the speed that I wish my DE had. I actually lost a game the other week because my bikes were too slow...

Harlies have a similar move, but theirs is a psychic test that (a) they can fail and (b) can be denied, and (C) is much shorter in casting range...

All of this is saying - I wish we were this fast! We are supposed to be blisteringly fast!

Anyways, just a slight rant...
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Fri Oct 13 2017, 05:15

They can advance two times? Rolling an 11 for the charge isn't normal

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Fri Oct 13 2017, 06:04

They have a special character that let's them get an additional move (not s psychic power or something, just an additional move for a unit within 12").
And with a move 8 base and the option of advancing and charging in the same turn, that means even if he would not have rolled high, genestealer can assault units 30" away assuming average rolls.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Fri Oct 13 2017, 07:11

You think that's fast? Gentlemen, allow me to present the Heldrake. This thing hits like a dreadnaught in melee, has a very powerful flamer, and has a move speed of 30". On average it can charge further than our main anti-tank weapon can shoot.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Fri Oct 13 2017, 08:02

I am not saying it is the fastest.
But I expect a helldrake to be faster then our foot troops, and comparible to our flyers (even though it is very fast considering it does not have the normal drawbacks of other flyers).

The thing is that if we compare our speed with other fast infantry units we just fall short. I do not expect a heldrake to be slower then our tanks, and our flyers are faster than the helldrake.
But I do expect our wyches to have similar move options to other fast infantry and here they consistently fall short. Since most other "fast" infantry have a similar move, but have 1 or more options making them faster, charging after advancing is common for quite a few units/armies, but also extra movements like the harlequins/ Ynnari/ tyranids makes infantry possibly faster.
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Fri Oct 13 2017, 08:35

|Meavar wrote:
I am not saying it is the fastest.
But I expect a helldrake to be faster then our foot troops, and comparible to our flyers (even though it is very fast considering it does not have the normal drawbacks of other flyers).

The thing is that if we compare our speed with other fast infantry units we just fall short. I do not expect a heldrake to be slower then our tanks, and our flyers are faster than the helldrake.
But I do expect our wyches to have similar move options to other fast infantry and here they consistently fall short. Since most other "fast" infantry have a similar move, but have 1 or more options making them faster, charging after advancing is common for quite a few units/armies, but also extra movements like the harlequins/ Ynnari/ tyranids makes infantry possibly faster.

The thing is that the Heldrake is a close combat monster, and it isn't paying for its speed in the same way we do (surely everyone has noticed how many points we are paying for our speed). It is less like our fliers than it is a very fast Dreadnaught.

But on a pure infantry scale... Banshees with their +3 Advance/Charge are faster than us. Striking Scorpions with their deep strikes are faster than us (or more accurately, are already where they want to be without having to cross the distance and get shot up). Chaos have plenty of options to outpace us, from infiltration to assault after advancing to using psychic powers to move twice (and a land raider full of Khorn berserkers moving 24 inches on first turn is a rather terrifying experience, let me tell you!)

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 03:09

FuelDrop wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
I am not saying it is the fastest.
But I expect a helldrake to be faster then our foot troops, and comparible to our flyers (even though it is very fast considering it does not have the normal drawbacks of other flyers).

The thing is that if we compare our speed with other fast infantry units we just fall short. I do not expect a heldrake to be slower then our tanks, and our flyers are faster than the helldrake.
But I do expect our wyches to have similar move options to other fast infantry and here they consistently fall short. Since most other "fast" infantry have a similar move, but have 1 or more options making them faster, charging after advancing is common for quite a few units/armies, but also extra movements like the harlequins/ Ynnari/ tyranids makes infantry possibly faster.

The thing is that the Heldrake is a close combat monster, and it isn't paying for its speed in the same way we do (surely everyone has noticed how many points we are paying for our speed). It is less like our fliers than it is a very fast Dreadnaught.

But on a pure infantry scale... Banshees with their +3 Advance/Charge are faster than us. Striking Scorpions with their deep strikes are faster than us (or more accurately, are already where they want to be without having to cross the distance and get shot up). Chaos have plenty of options to outpace us, from infiltration to assault after advancing to using psychic powers to move twice (and a land raider full of Khorn berserkers moving 24 inches on first turn is a rather terrifying experience, let me tell you!)

This is what I am saying.

Our infantry almost **MUST** be in vehicles to be worth wile, while our vehicles are relatively slow. Grey Knights Razorback move at 12". That is hardly less than our raiders.

Our "Fast" infantry are out-sped by almost every other fast infantry out there. Hell, I feel like even IG can keep up....

We pay for our speed - dearly, and that is supposed to be the DE defining factor.

We are Fast, with terror tactics and we play with our food...

Here is hoping we gain some speed back in the codex...
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 03:44

I agree. Speed was supposed to be a defining attribute of DE and it’s not.

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 04:30

Faitherun wrote:


This is what I am saying.

Our infantry almost **MUST** be in vehicles to be worth wile, while our vehicles are relatively slow. Grey Knights Razorback move at 12". That is hardly less than our raiders.


While technically we weren't faster than most vehicles unless moving flat out in previous editions (and we could not use our full speed without firing snap shots in 7th, leaving us with an effective 6" movement followed by disembark/shoot). Still, open topped meant that was 6" we had on most other armies.

Quote :
Our "Fast" infantry are out-sped by almost every other fast infantry out there. Hell, I feel like even IG can keep up....

They can, if they use orders. We lack options to advance AND do stuff, whereas many other armies can either shoot, assault, or both after advancing. Factoring in mobility enhancing special abilities or psychic powers makes things even more lopsided. We're not a slow army, but we are at best middling in this regard.

Quote :
We pay for our speed - dearly, and that is supposed to be the DE defining factor.

We pay in both survivability and points for speed. We do not get a good return on investment.
Quote :

We are Fast, with terror tactics and we play with our food...
What terror tactics? We lack good options for even low end leadership shenanigans.

Quote :
Here is hoping we gain some speed back in the codex...
Agreed.

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 05:16

FuelDrop wrote:
Faitherun wrote:



We are Fast, with terror tactics and we play with our food...
What terror tactics? We lack good options for even low end leadership shenanigans.

Exactly. Those are the things, fluff wise, and in previous editions we had. I want my terror tactics back. Even though in previous editions, most armies were immune to it.

I want weapons that wound vs enemy LD (modified)

I want guns that slow enemies down

I want a way to have our army be as fast as bugs, CWE, or even freaking IG with orders.

I miss always striking first in CC cause we are DE.

I want more ways to stack - LD mods

These are the things that define DE, and are missing.

But the speed that a swarm of Geenestealers with proper support can get.... that really opened my eyes to what is possible and what we deserve
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 05:34

Faitherun wrote:
FuelDrop wrote:
Faitherun wrote:



We are Fast, with terror tactics and we play with our food...
What terror tactics? We lack good options for even low end leadership shenanigans.

Exactly. Those are the things, fluff wise, and in previous editions we had. I want my terror tactics back. Even though in previous editions, most armies were immune to it.

I want weapons that wound vs enemy LD (modified)

I want guns that slow enemies down

I want a way to have our army be as fast as bugs, CWE, or even freaking IG with orders.

I miss always striking first in CC cause we are DE.

I want more ways to stack - LD mods

These are the things that define DE, and are missing.

But the speed that a swarm of Geenestealers with proper support can get.... that really opened my eyes to what is possible and what we deserve

One final addition to this list: I don't want to have to go a stinking Ynarri list to get access to this stuff! I want to be able to play my DE as DE without having to go out of codex to get the stuff I need to play!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 10:04

Currently Tyranids is the fastest army in the game, no one will be faster, they can have an entire army move 30+ every turn, shoot and charge still....

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sat Oct 14 2017, 23:17

In the before time; in the long, long ago; Tyranids were one of the fastest armies in the game. Able to cross the board for a first turn assault with the resilience to give you a middle finger if you didn't like it. But Dark Eldar were STILL faster.

They seem to have returned bugs to their 3rd ed roots, so I'm VERY hopeful they will do the same for us.
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 02:55

Quote :
In the before time; in the long, long ago; Tyranids were one of the fastest armies in the game. Able to cross the board for a first turn assault with the resilience to give you a middle finger if you didn't like it. But Dark Eldar were STILL faster.

They seem to have returned bugs to their 3rd ed roots, so I'm VERY hopeful they will do the same for us.

Nail on the head. I couldn't be happier that Tyranids got their speed back, it's fluffy, and makea the army a fun and variable one to play against...I just really hope they left some tricks left over for us.

Anyone heard of the Alpha Legion shenanigans? 1CP to deploy a unit 9" away before the first turn. That means that Khorne Berzerkers can drop down, move 6," shoot, charge (3.1", or about a 97% chance of success before rerolls). Since this is done before the battle technically starts, they can use this Strategem as long as they have Command Points.

Even worse, is that the ruling states that it's during the first battle round, but before the first turn,.so there's no risk of being shot to death if they go second.

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 04:34

CSM is IMO the strongest army ATM, yes IG won Nova, but i think CSM needs a few more players using it, the AL/Zerkers with the Dbl shooting Termies/Oblits/Noise Marines just seem to good.

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 06:49

Absolutley. I took the "Lawrence venom spam" list against a CSM list with 6 squads of obliterators and managed to keep just one ravager alive with 4 wounds when the game ended on turn 6. The Oblits could comfortably wreak 600 points of damage a turn. A Malefic Lord shrugged off 9 dark lance shots before succumbing to poison. Their vehicle smite power is bonkers.

I think to counter them, you need to use Eldar Rangers to keep them from deepstriking anywhere near your really important vehicle line. The bubble wrapped warriors were OK but the -1 to hit was negated by Abaddon's re-rolls, prescience for +1 to hit and endless cacaphony for a unit to rinse and repeat it's shooting phasse.

Also, movement. This time last year, if something terrifying deep struck I would reposition 30" or further away. We are hideously slow, MASSIVE issue with this.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 15:01

Did your opponent re-roll the 3's on the -1's?

If you are a 3+ to hit and you are then shooting at something with a type of "hard to hit" rule (aka -1 to hit), you do not get to re-roll the 3's. Just double checking b.c many still havent gotten used to that.


But yes, CSM is top tier for sure, and this isnt surprising to me.


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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 15:18

We mentioned all this in our letter yeah? Hopefully that will have some impact on what we actually get.
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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 15:46

Quote :
But yes, CSM is top tier for sure, and this isnt surprising to me.

GW took the top meta factions (CW and T'au) and nerfed them to the ground (Necrons somehow survived this, as usual).

They then took the most underplayed/Underpowered armies (Harlies, Nids, CSM, SOB) and glorified their names (even WE are somewhat viable).

Then they finally decided to ruin it all and go "Screw this, IG is going to be the new cheese".

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 15:54

Necrons honestly isnt that good right now. They are good against High damage weapons, but when it comes to everything else they fall apart. They are one of the weakest armies atm, unless your new to the game then sure they are godly frustrating to fight against.

The couple Necron players at my local wont even play them till the codex comes out, they have a lot of problems in the index.... and i mean a lot.


I also play Necrons (well my wife does but she isnt a 40k player just does it for me, so i have to learn the army and help her, she pick them based on looks)

At 1st they look strong AF, but then when you play them... you realize how bad they are, like 7th DE bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 16:02

Well they aren't top meta anymore, but they got decent troops, very good HQs... and that's pretty much it.
But IMO a Warrior spam + Cryptek + Anrakyr is a valid list.

+1 to RP, 5++, +1 to hit and +1 A is VERY GOOD force multiplying.

I played a few games vs them, and beat them everytime, so they definitly got nerfed. But looking at a 20 man squad and realizing that it can deal 80 S4 WS/BS 2+ attacks in one turn is... interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 16:27

Necrons certainly have a decent core of HQs and Troops, but without the specialists to back them up, they basically are a gigantic, unkillable blob, that trudges meaninglessly across the board.
I haven't played them this edition, but from what I've seen, their only hope is KP games.

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 19:31

amishprn86 wrote:
Did your opponent re-roll the 3's on the -1's?




Hey man! He knew to throw away the 3s. Didn't slow him down by much...

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PostSubject: Re: Nids have my Speed   Sun Oct 15 2017, 19:37

DEfan wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:
Did your opponent re-roll the 3's on the -1's?




Hey man! He knew to throw away the 3s. Didn't slow him down by much...

NP, i was just checking, i was a couple BatReps a day (I work at home and can) and is till see it over and over again.

Re-rolls are strong for sure.

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