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 Voidweaver v. Ravager

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Thu Oct 12 2017, 21:35

@Myrvn wrote:
Have most folks that use Windriders shifted to Shuriken Cannons or do they remain with the scatter lasers? I

According to the spreadsheet sticked in this forum, Scatbikes are better against GEQ, while ShuriCannon bikes are better against MEQ. Assuming a 4+ to hit for Heavy on the Scatbikes.

Either way, the bikes are still quite good with Farseer support. Even more so as Ynnari.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 00:19

@Mppqlmd wrote:
They are better than the Dire Avengers anyway ^^

Dire Avengers and Fire Prisms are both horrifically overpriced this edition.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:04

@FuelDrop wrote:

Dire Avengers and Fire Prisms are both horrifically overpriced this edition.

A good third of the CW index is anyway.
If you go and look on CW tacticas for 8th, you'll see a lot of "DE and Harlies do it better anyway, so why bother ?".

Grass is always greener in the neighbour's field, i guess.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:16

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:

Dire Avengers and Fire Prisms are both horrifically overpriced this edition.

A good third of the CW index is anyway.
If you go and look on CW tacticas for 8th, you'll see a lot of "DE and Harlies do it better anyway, so why bother ?".

Grass is always greener in the neighbour's field, i guess.

Honestly, given my primary tactics are "Guardians, Wave Serpents and Psykers", I never really noticed.

Did spot the stupid change to Swooping Hawks which makes them almost useless after a very good run in 7th edition. Well, the MANY stupid changes to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:22

1d4chan, Eldar tactics 8th edition

Quote :
Troops
Note: It's pretty much accepted that everything the Craftworld Eldar can take in this slot is either 1) Massively Overpriced compared to their equivalents in other armies (Dire Avengers vs Trueborn, Tactical Marines and Intercessors), 2) Completely outclassed by their equivalents (Storm Guardians vs Wyches, Wracks, Troupes or Cultists, Rangers vs Ratlings) 3) Both (Guardian Defenders vs Kabalite Warriors or Guardsmen, Rangers vs Scouts). If you are playing a pure Craftworld army then this slot is a Tax for your Batallion and Brigade Formations and you want to keep your Troop picks as cheap as Eldarly possible. If you are going for a Mixed list remember that Dark Eldar troops are all objectively much better for their cost, and Harlequin Troupes are disgustingly good (though expensive) for Close Combat armies. Think about what your army needs before committing.

I think there is a drama tradition in the Eldar family : everyone likes to pretend their army is the most underpowered.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:24

Aw bless! Someone thinks Wyches are good!

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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:27

@Mppqlmd wrote:
1d4chan, Eldar tactics 8th edition

Quote :
Troops
Note: It's pretty much accepted that everything the Craftworld Eldar can take in this slot is either 1) Massively Overpriced compared to their equivalents in other armies (Dire Avengers vs Trueborn, Tactical Marines and Intercessors), 2) Completely outclassed by their equivalents (Storm Guardians vs Wyches, Wracks, Troupes or Cultists, Rangers vs Ratlings) 3) Both (Guardian Defenders vs Kabalite Warriors or Guardsmen, Rangers vs Scouts). If you are playing a pure Craftworld army then this slot is a Tax for your Batallion and Brigade Formations and you want to keep your Troop picks as cheap as Eldarly possible. If you are going for a Mixed list remember that Dark Eldar troops are all objectively much better for their cost, and Harlequin Troupes are disgustingly good (though expensive) for Close Combat armies. Think about what your army needs before committing.

I think there is a drama tradition in the Eldar family : everyone likes to pretend their army is the most underpowered.

After seeing them recommend Wyches as an awesome unit in 8th I tend to think that the writers on those articles need serious help.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:28

Well that's the point : it's easy to glorify a unit if you don't play it.
It's always easier to state that your army is underpowered, and others are more powerful. Which can be observed a lot in this forum as well Smile

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:52

It is easier to say "my army is bad" or "my opponent's army is too good" than "maybe I made a bad choice" or "maybe my opponent made some better choices than I". We are all guilty of this. Only if you have the math to back it up should you really say so - and even then you may be wrong, because none of us mathhammerers so far (that I know of) has produced a complete army-wide analysis compared to other armies. Probably because it is hard for me at least to imagine what form such should take and what unit it should produce to be compared. All in-game units exist in a context of: what the opposing armies are with what probability, what other units you will bring, what kind of game you play, and what kind of strategy you employ. There is a lot more to this than "A unit deals 5.0971 damage to unit B with 95% probability for 192 standardized points".

I will also again add my personal view that being mediocre is good. It is more likely then that the other player will correctly attribute your win to yourself. Unfortunately, in my experience, both the local and online WH40k community is very unsportsmanlike. They ostensibly want competitive lists, but they don't really want fair competition because that will be "cheese". Unless you win, then it wasn't cheese (but if you ask the opponent it probably was). Any wins/losses are easily attributed to "x army is so good" instead of "X is a good player". The loser always starts a balance discussion. Having a good army means experiencing more bad sportsmanship (unless it's marines).

Anyway, being mediocre is good. And even if the community were better, being mediocre means winning takes more skill (but is still very possible). Probably nobody picked Dark Eldar because they are an easy army.

Realised this became a rant. Sorry about that. But it is a very good point.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 10:13

Yes and I think a lot of that comes from the problem that most people remmeber the units that do reasonably well against them.

If I fight eldar, I remember I got shot up by a crap of s4 shuriken, a lot of shots from a few reapers and the banshees who fought first.

I will soon forget or never notice that those shuriken took a lot of effort to bring close enough, those reapers are feeling mandatory since they are so good, and the banshees still only hit at str 3 with only 2 attacks. And remember that those reapers are way to good, and the shuriken is wounding al my guys on 3+ and 5+ vs vehicles while I need 4+ against infantry and 6+ versus vehicles with my standard troops.
Also 1 unit of kabalites in most armies is really good since you will often have the ability to shoot at suits/bikers/deathguard/ something t5. So people remember them as great, while we notice yes we can shoot at 1 unit of t5, but we also have no real other option then to use those same guns against all those t3 targets.
So often our (and eldar) units in general are really good in specific cases, but that means that if we cannot force those special cases or did not build for it we have a problem.
The short range of the guardians is not much of a problem against orks or us, but against a mobile tau backline with range 30 everywhere it means half of your army is dead before you get into range.

beaten to it by lord Johan
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 12:06

They took our jobs!
Dey terk er jerbs!
cerk a derdle jer!
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 13:16

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Aw bless! Someone thinks Wyches are good!

Well, compared to Storm Guardians...

I can sympathise with the Craftworlder complaints because trying to slot in a cheap Craftworld detachment feels genuinely tricky currently. If you want a Patrol all of their Troop choices are pretty much nothing but an expensive tax.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 13:21

@Burnage wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Aw bless! Someone thinks Wyches are good!

Well, compared to Storm Guardians...

I can sympathise with the Craftworlder complaints because trying to slot in a cheap Craftworld detachment feels genuinely tricky currently. If you want a Patrol all of their Troop choices are pretty much nothing but an expensive tax.

Hmmm. If we combine their troops and our HQs we can create a tax regiment!

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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 14:14

Cheapest Craftworld detachment? Supreme Command, 3x Warlocks. 37 points each.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 16:21

@Chippen wrote:
Cheapest Craftworld detachment? Supreme Command, 3x Warlocks. 37 points each.

Which isn't useful if you want any other unit that isn't an Elite or Lord of War.

A Patrol detachment of a Warlock and unit of Storm Guardians is a bit cheaper (93 points at minimum), but that's still a lot for two units that aren't going to do much by themselves.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Fri Oct 13 2017, 16:52

Actually the cheapest Craftworlds detachment is auxiliary support detachment with 1 warlock. 37p.

This may seem inane, but see http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16547-eldar-trickery-coming-to-a-table-near-you-soon - if it works like that you might want to add it to your army after all.

Edit: no, I am dumb, it is actually the understrength auxiliary support detachment of 1 storm guardian for 7 pts. So if that will in future unlock Craftworlds Stratagems, seems fairly priced.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Sat Oct 14 2017, 13:27

Playing both Craftworlds and DE I definitely find I'm much happier overall with the current state of DE (which isn't to say a lot of our units couldn't also use a boost). We have more different, viable options to build a well rounded army from, and even our less optimal units seem to just be a little "eh". They're not ideal but it won't kill your whole list to include a squad of Wyches or Reavers. With Eldar it seems if you want to be viable you'll have to spam Reapers, Shining Spears, and Wraith units.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Sat Oct 14 2017, 13:41

And more so : to be viable with CW you have to go Ynnari.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidweaver v. Ravager   Sat Oct 14 2017, 23:03

Ok i now i am late, but, I have played MANY times in 8th so far with both these units.

3+ Ravagers (6 at times lol well 2 of them are Reapers a lot of the time too) and 3+ Voidweavers (mostly 4 sometimes 5).

I LOVE the Voidweavers b.c they are fast, effective, cheap and i can spam the crap out of them (again cheap).


Ok now here is the thing.

Voidweavers are for spam S6/Movement harassers, not for Heavy damage. After playing with them your Prismatic Cannon doesnt really do much at all.... I mean its always at a 4+ to hit and sometimes you cant even shoot it b.c its better to have a Vodweaver go for a far objective than your 5 troupes/starweaver, you NEVER want to outposition your troupes/starweaver.

My 2/3 Ravagers for sure always do more damage than my 3/4/5 Voidweavers.



I have talked to GW about making the Voidweaver ABLE to shoot with advancement, they said they like the idea (along with the Skyweavers) so this might change, if it does and the weapon becomes like the DL and gets Assault it will be a great worth for DE and Harlequins.

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