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Vlad
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PostSubject: Soulburst move   Wed Oct 11 2017, 21:34

Evening people,

Just a quick question that may already be covered else where but I could not find! Can you use a soulburst action to embark on a vehicle? For example, drive up in a wave serpent, disembark your 5 d-scythe wielding wraith guard, kill something squishy and then get back in the wave serpent using the soulburst?

Many thanks in advance,
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Wed Oct 11 2017, 21:40

I asked the same question recently, this is what came up from a FAQ

Q: Can I embark within a transport at any time
other than in the Movement phase, such as following
a consolidate move that takes a unit within 3" of
a transport?
A: No. You may only embark within or disembark a
transport in the Movement phase, unless a rule or ability
explicitly says otherwise. (from Stepping into a new edition of Warhammer 40,000)

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Vlad
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Wed Oct 11 2017, 22:02

Well that's foiled my plans!
Thanks for the answer Smile
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Fremen
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 12:56

I am not sure about that... In soulburst description it is said that "the unit can move as if it were your movement phase". To me it looks like you can do that combination.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 13:11

@Fremen wrote:
I am not sure about that... In soulburst description it is said that "the unit can move as if it were your movement phase". To me it looks like you can do that combination.

This was my interpretation. Soulburst movement is treated as being a bonus individual movement phase, so I'd assume embarking would be okay.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 13:58

I don't see any reason why you would not be able to embark after a Soulburst move. The Embark rule is not restricted to the movement phase and simply says "If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it". The SfD rule allows a unit to "...move as if it were your Movement phase. It can Advance or Fall Back as part of this move". If that move ends with all models within 3" of a transport then I believe they should be able to embark normally (unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise).

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 14:59

Thank you very much good sirs. Upon further scrutiny I have failed to find any reason like you have said above that would suggest otherwise.

So in summary, my opponent is going to hate me tomorrow when I speed up in my Wave Serpent, jump out, D-Scythe the crap out of something and then Soulburst back into the serpent. Rinse and repeat.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 15:30

True, although if you have a unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard and a Soulburst action it would be rude not to shoot the living heck out of another unit rather than cowering in your hovercraft.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 15:38

Well to be fair if there is a second unit within the 8" required to shoot the d-scythes then I would certainly use that instead but the chances are it'll be kill and then back in the serpent.
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 18:13

Transport rules (p183), first paragraph, last sentence:
"Note that a unit may not embark and disembark in the same turn."

So even if you get extra movement phases, you can't jump out, shoot, and re-embark.

The exception is if you get a soulburst in the opponent's turn (Assault phase, Perils kills a pysker, they shoot your stuff, etc). Since that's a different turn you can jump into the transport then.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 18:58

1. The unit can move as if it were your Movement phase
2. If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it
3. You may only embark within or disembark a transport in the Movement phase

These are the direct quotes, yes? So at which point does this virtual movement phase end?

is it version 1
Code:

1. Soulburst triggers
-- virtual movement phase starts --
2. You make a move as if it were your movement phase
3. You end your move (within 3" of a friendly transport)
-- virtual movement phase ends --
4. If you ended your move within 3" of a transport, you may embark, but only in the Movement phase
or version 2
Code:

1. Soulburst triggers
-- virtual movement phase starts --
2. You make a move as if it were your movement phase
3. You end your move (within 3" of a friendly transport)
4. If you ended your move within 3" of a transport, you may embark, but only in the Movement phase
-- virtual movement phase ends --

In version 1 you cannot embark, since it is not your Movement phase. In version 2 you can.

I do not think these quotes provide enough information to be completely sure which is the correct interpretation. At which point does it stop being your movement phase after you soulburst? I think it depends on whether embarking is part of the move action, or a special check you can make after the move action (in which case your virtual movement phase could be argued to end first), but the transport rule is too minimal to contain this detail.

Anyway, seems like it is moot for OP's plan.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Fri Oct 13 2017, 23:23

Soulburst doesn't create a "virtual movement phase". It allows you to "move as if it were your movement phase".

The only similarity with the movement phase is your ability to move. Anything else that happens during the movement phase is forbidden. For example, if you could proc a Soulburst on the Voidraven (which i know is forbidden) and gave him an extra movement, you could NOT drop a bomb, as the bomb rule says "in your movement phase" and soulburst isn't creating a movement phase, it's merely creating a movement.

Quote :

The Embark rule is not restricted to the movement phase

The FAQ i quoted earlier in this thread states otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 07:49

Yes, I provided you with that quote from Stepping into a new edition of Warhammer 40,000 in another thread. It is technically not a FAQ/errata but a designer commentary. Who are you quoting? You can only embark in the movement phase.

By "virtual movement phase" I meant the part of the rule that reads "as if it were your movement phase". This statement is taken to mean that all rules that apply in the movement phase apply to the units that are moving.

For example, Ynnari units that are shooting are affected by all rules that read "in the shooting phase", even if they are shooting in, say, the Psychic phase. E.g. they are not allowed to target characters unless they are the closest visible unit, because you are not allowed to target characters unless they are the closest visible unit in the Shooting phase (an example of another general rule that specifies a phase). I would call this the virtual shooting phase per above, meaning for the duration of the action, all rules that work in the shooting phase are in effect. I think we agree here.

So the question is, are Ynnari that are moving as if it were their movement phase affected by the embark rule as if it were their movement phase.

Edit: or, are you in fact arguing they could also indeed shoot at any Character using word of the Phoenix, even if it has 9 or less wounds and is not the closest visible unit, because it is not really a shooting phase but a shooting action? Meaning a different interpreration of "as if it were". I think there has to be something said against this, but it escapes me now.
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 09:29

The targeting, or non-targeting, of a Character is tied to the action of shooting, not to the shooting phase.

Here is another example : the Haemonculus can use a Crucible of Malediction in his Psychic Phase. Soulburst could make him "attempt to use a single psychic power as if it were the Psychic Phase". Even though the formulation "As if it were the Psychic Phase" is there, the Haemonculus benefiting from a Soulburst cannot use a Crucible of Malediction in his Soulburst.

The whole point of the "As if it were" formulation is to indicate that THE ONLY similarity between a soulburst move and a movement phase is the ability to move. Anything else that happens in the movement phase is still forbidden.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 09:44

Haemonculi cannot get the SfD rule.

The rule about targeting characters reads verbatim: "A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting". The most common application of the inverse of this rule is that characters can still be targeted by Overwatch (in the Charge phase) even though they are not the closest visible enemy unit (if you're wondering, this is not specified in the Overwatch rule, which reads it uses all normal rules except a 6 is required to hit - it must be deduced from the Character rule).  It is tied to it being the Shooting phase.

It is even explicited in Stepping into:
Quote :
Q: When can I target an enemy  Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?

A: Such a  Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy  Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy  Characters  which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge  phase). *Note, however, that some psychic powers, such as  Smite, do not target units but instead affect the nearest enemy unit.

So, unless they are wrapped in a "virtual Shooting phase" by the SfD rule's "as if it were", they can target characters when soulbursting in the Psychic phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 11:07

Quote :
Haemonculi cannot get the SfD rule.
I know. That's clearly not the point here. The point is to consider whether the "Soulburst actions" give you access to other actions that occur in the same phase. Voidraven Bomber can't get SFD either, and i used it as an example as well.

I can see the point in arguing that Soulburst actions would ignore the Character targetting rule. I don't think so :
- Soulburst gives you one shooting attack
- That attack is resolved as if it was in the shooting phase
- Rules for Character targetting that normally apply in the shooting phase do apply.

For the Soulburs move, it's different.

Quote :
If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it

The fact that the rule clearly states that the move ended within 3" of the transport tells you one thing : the move is OVER. It isn't a rule that covers movements in the movement phase, it's an additionnal action that can proc, in the movement phase, after you finish a move.

Soulburst moves respect every single rule that cover movements in the movement phase (rules like "You can't go within 1" of an enemy", things like that). But once the move is over (once the move has ended), so has the Soulburst action, and thus there is no reason to continue and act like it's still the movement phase => no embarking.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 11:54

That is what I argued is ambiguous. See code sections. I do not think the two rules contain enough information to disambiguate whether the embark rules check happens when the move ends (soulburst still in effect) or after the move ends (not in effect).
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 12:00

Interesting argument.

It seems to be hinging on some real subtleties of the language involved, and it doesn't seem absolutely clear to me.

The distinction Mppqlmd is making is the Soulburst allows a unit to 'move as if it were your Movement phase' means only that you can move, not that you get a bonus Movement phase as such. The option of casting a Psychic Power is for a single psychic power (a Farseer could cast two in a normal psychic phase), so is not the same as a full psychic phase. Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that the rule does mean only the 'move' component of the movement phase.

If that is accepted, then the next question would embarking be considered part of a move? I don't see a firm reason to define it either way, but my instinct is it seems different enough to not be movement. Mppqlmd's quote above to me could be read as he has it, or as the move takes them into the transport.

Voidhawk's point about not being able to disembark and embark in the same turn would also apply to Soulburst, but perhaps in a subsequent turn you might want to Soulburst back on board.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 12:27

Okay i can see where you're standing LordJohan : your interpretation comes from the idea that "when a movement ends" means the movement is "in the process of ending", and thus isn't finished yet.

If that's the case, then yes, you can embark on a Soulburst move.

This is thus indeed becoming a semantic question rather than a rule question.

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 13:52

Yes and no. I tend to always approach these things from a programmatic/algorithmic pespective, maybe because I deeply love computers, so I ask what is the programmatic/logical meaning of "as if it were" and when it ends. But let's try using natural language instead to express the difference I tried to elucidate above.

Scenario 2 reads "The Dire Avengers soulburst. They may now move as if it were the movement phase. They end their move within 3" of a transport, as if it were the movement phase. Because they ended the move within 3" of a transport as if it were the moving phase, they then embark, since they ended their move within 3" as if in the movement phase." (Units that end their move within 3" of a transport in the Movement phase may embark, and they did the same thing "as if it were the Movement phase". Algorithmically, you do not check whether it is the movement phase or not between steps)

Scenario 1 reads "The Dire Avengers soulburst. They may now move as if it were the movement phase. They end their move within 3" of a transport, as if it were the movement phase. Even though they ended the move within 3" of a transport as if it were the moving phase, they cannot then embark, since they are not in the movement phase" (They ended their move as if it were the Movement phase, but the logic stops there, because it is not the Movement phase even though they have ended their move "as if it were" that. Algorithmically, you take a step to check the actual phase of the game before the embark rather than accepting the embark as a direct consequence of the move)

Which is correct? I do not have enough information to tell you. This is because the Embark rule's language refers to the logical statement "it is the movement phase = ?" but the Soulburst rule does not tell you when exactly you are supposed to say "it is the movement phase = true" and when to say "it is the movement phase = false" in terms of which other rules apply. For example let's imagine you have an ability that targets units that are about to make a move in the Movement phase, triggering after the move is announced but before they actually make the move - would this be usable on a unit that is soulbursting to move?
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 18:32

Treating the rules-set as programmatic is an intelligent approach, but has one stumbling block: 40k was not built from an intelligent or algorithmic point of view!

This is why we often talk about Rules As Written vs Rules As Intended. Because the rules are so slap-dash they naturally generate indeterminate and/or ludicrous corner cases, so we have to both zoom-in on the exact wording and zoom-out and ask what they were trying to create. In this case Rules As Written fails us entirely because of the timing issues you've talked about (a frequent problem when the smallest divided unit is the Phase), so we have to look at Rules As Intended.

When you move a unit, the figures are running about an imaginary battlefield. They are not exact-mathematical objects, but humans/xenos/daemons performing actions. Is it reasonable to say that a unit that gets a sudden burst of magical speed can jump into a vehicle? I don't see why it wouldn't. The rules already deny jumping both in and out in the same turn, so issues of dodging all possible retaliation have already been covered.
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 21:39

I don't really think that thinking about the verissimilitude/logic of the simulation is a good way to apprehend rule problems. There are so many situations where the scenario dictated by the rules doesn't make any sense, but it's still the one happening. Even though it's a game that tells a story, it's still a game, and it has rules. It's not a theater play.

For example, the Vostroyans have an order to shoot in melee, and risk hitting their friends on a 1 to hit. What is the weapont that has the least chance of hitting a friend ? The flamer, since it doesn't roll to hit => no risk of rolling a 1. That's right. Out of all the weapons that you can shoot at a melee, the weapon that has 0 chance of hitting your friends is... the flamethrower...

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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 22:17

You may be in a game where the opponent has 1 squad of tac marines and a Guilliman. You yourself have 1 archon and a unit of kabaĺites that are locked in combat with the tac marines behind the Archon's back. Guilliman is 8"in front of your archon, the others are fighing it out in CC 6" behind your archon. There are no LoS blocking objects around. You might think your Archon can make a shot at Guilliman, but alas Guilliman is impossible to distinguish from the din of combat 6" behind your back, so you cannot shoot at anybody with the Archon.

Realism is a poor guide with these rules too. The sentiment is appreciated though.
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sat Oct 14 2017, 22:41

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that attempting to discern verisimilitude should be your first fallback. After all, the reasons the rules exist is so that games aren't just arguing matches over what should happen in every little situation.

But when the rules fail, when holes become apparent where the outcome is in doubt, it's the best guide to what you should go with. Why? Because that's how they were written in the first place! The GW designers are very casual with how they write things, going for ease of use in the general case rather than useful/applicable in every case.

Their general tie-breaking system for years has been "roll off for who decides", not exactly conducive to precise decision making! And in 8th ed the main rules have been made shorter (note: very different from "simpler"), so more of these edge cases are inevitable.
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PostSubject: Re: Soulburst move   Sun Oct 15 2017, 07:37

That's probably true. In a related argument I would argue that any designer casually writing rules would have meant the Soulburst rule to mean "you can do the same things that you could in the movement phase and rules work as usual when moving" instead of aiming at any esoteric interpretations. They would have wanted all things listed as applying in the movement phase (eg. minimum speed, measuring distance) to apply here. The exceptions to normal rules (only 1 psychic power, can shoot even if you fell back) seem to be listed in the rule, so if they wanted it not to allow Embarking, wouldn't they have written "you cannot Embark with this move"? They are surely aware that Aeldari have lots of transports.

Unfortunately with this type of argument your opponent may not agree that it is credible or reasonable. And what's more is we have the ruling of "you can only embark in the Movement phase", and you could make a similar credibility argument that that author probably knew Soulburst exists and would have clarified if applicable. You could imagine this, in terms of verisimiltude, as the transport moving fast at the time (it only stops for embarks in Movement phase) so even blindingly fast Ynnari can't hop aboard.
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