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merse24
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PostSubject: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Mon Oct 09 2017, 20:55

Not sure exactly where this should go...


Lawrence at Tabletop Tactics posted a great Vox Cast covering the No Retreat V tournament.  He shares his results and a lot of the tactics he employed.  It goes against a lot of what we've collectively thought was the optimum builds here.  But granted, he is truly a great Archon, so make of it what you will.  

I should note, that he does mention our great forum during the intro!

Video Link:
https://youtu.be/oNkSlwaz5Jo

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:27

Hmm... I'll watch it, but No Retreat always plays with large amounts of House rules (well in the past) they are a more "friendly" tournament, banning many units, formations, wargear etc... IDK how they are in 8th ed but from 7th edition i wrote them off.

Being a new edition, i for sure will give them a try again.


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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 02:02

Looking at some of the armies played, doesn't look like there were many restrictions
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 04:01

merse24 wrote:
Looking at some of the armies played, doesn't look like there were many restrictions

I just finished watching it. First i wanted to say that he is a good player and not trying to make him sound like he isnt.

But just from my PoV of this event, this is how i see it.



Many of the armies he went against wasnt.... a GT list. They were good yes but not flushed out for sure.

It was for sure a more Friendly tournament scene. I mean you didnt see the top 3 armies style there at all (CSM M, Lord spamw ith Noise/Zerkers and Cultist respawn, Tau Commander, IG spam).

The Ynnari/Quins list was (for me this was the game i listen to and rewatched it a couple times since im a harlequin player).... wasted points in many spots. Almost 1/2 the points was in HQ's alone and he was to low unit count for a Ynnari list. He wasted many points in gear 25 Caress is just a waste compare to Embraces, thats a 75pts difference, that a Troupe Master with Embrace and FP difference.

The BA player wasnt a strong list either.

His last game, Horror spam is basically out of meta now due to the other top lists just destory it, in a friendly environment, yeah its very dangerous. And its not Banned in ITC, its just not good anymore and IDK why he thinks its banned? B.c players where there using it, the MWG guys decided not to play it and went GK's b.c it was to weak.


He did play great and played to win for sure. He knows what he is doing, but from my PoV it was more of a friendly tournament.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 04:25

merse24 wrote:
Lawrence at Tabletop Tactics posted a great Vox Cast covering the No Retreat V tournament.  He shares his results and a lot of the tactics he employed.  It goes against a lot of what we've collectively thought was the optimum builds here.

I'm not sure it does? Ravagers and Razorwing Jetfighters seem to be accepted by pretty much everyone on here as amazing. Kabalites are a bit more controversial but still very clearly our best troop choice, while Venoms seem to get roughly equal love to Raiders. He also pointed out that Archons aren't actually competitive, and the Sslyth was just to use up some leftover points.

It's obviously a fine list, I'm just not sure it deviates that much from what gets suggested on here as being good.
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 12:09

People re 50/50 here and it is clear, i mention that to him.

If you go and read the topics and count up who likes splinter cannons, who like venoms and ones that dont, its a clear 50%.

No Retreat also is a COMPLETELY different meta, local meta should always be counted when list building, sometimes a Niche under powered unit is perfect to deal with your area.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 13:11

The forgeworld Lord of change special character is banned in ITC. It falls under the blanket ban against titans and other expensive monstrosities
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 16:02

bondoid wrote:
The forgeworld Lord of change special character is banned in ITC. It falls under the blanket ban against titans and other expensive monstrosities

Ah ok.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:20

I was mainly referring to his use of double SC venoms and warriors. As Amish has said, there have been pretty healthy debates on this site for their use. I think we are all pretty much in agreement of the value that the Razorwings and Ravagers bring. I just thought that the screening tactics he employed was valuable information on how to make better use of the Warriors.

Also, it was very nice to see that despite some of the doom and gloom that can be represented on here, the Dark Eldar are indeed in a pretty decent place right now and hopefully will only improve once the codex is released.
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:27

merse24 wrote:
I was mainly referring to his use of double SC venoms and warriors.  As Amish has said, there have been pretty healthy debates on this site for their use.  I think we are all pretty much in agreement of the value that the Razorwings and Ravagers bring.  I just thought that the screening tactics he employed was valuable information on how to make better use of the Warriors.

Also, it was very nice to see that despite some of the doom and gloom that can be represented on here, the Dark Eldar are indeed in a pretty decent place right now and hopefully will only improve once the codex is released.  

The Warrior screen been talk about on here before too, he was doing that b.c he went against some Smite spam, against IG, SM long range or CSM Noise/Zerk list and Tau'mander list that doesnt do anything at all and is just a free 1st blood.

Many of those style tactics are based on the army you are fighting, thats another reason why i take Raiders b.c i have 2 units of Kabals in them and it gives me more options of protection with less drops, and the Dis cannon is so limited.

Not trying to dismiss the tactic, just trying to give more insight into it so others dont miss play it.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Wed Oct 11 2017, 00:54

Always enjoy the Tabletop Tactics videos.
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Thu Oct 12 2017, 15:36

Awesome thanks for sharing!m Go Lawrence!

Shame about the coherency ruling, if he had killed enough horrors to force them to move off the objectives, but not so many as to make it impossible for them to make coherency he would have won.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Thu Oct 12 2017, 17:07

Mushkilla wrote:
Awesome thanks for sharing!m Go Lawrence!

Shame about the coherency ruling, if he had killed enough horrors to force them to move off the objectives, but not so many as to make it impossible for them to make coherency he would have won.

Yeah i hope the re-faq this and say they have to always try to move together.


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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Fri Oct 13 2017, 00:28

I would prefer the rule was that you had to remove casualties to stay in coherency.

Was an interesting watch, and I would agree with most of his composition decisions. Specifically, Raiders are an inefficient way to get Dark Lances or Disintegrators - get Ravagers instead - and Venoms are a more resilient option.

The Warriors as a Smite resilience approach was interesting, and apart from Razorwing Flocks that's the most efficient way to do it. Having the option to drop the Warriors out or stay in the Venoms was a good way to cover smite without spending points specifically on them.

To give more options on the screening, he could have dropped some Splinter Cannons and added some Razorwing Flocks in there. If he dropped all nine cannons and the Sslyth that could have been four units of three Razorwing Flocks, and then the Warriors could have stayed in their Venoms when using the screening deployment.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Fri Oct 13 2017, 20:14

That was a great watch. The -1 to hit protection of venoms is something I am going to try to alleviate the damage of the obliterator deep strike punch. Warriors are fence 1, the venoms are fence 2 and the important ravagers and razorwings will be the pearl inside the shell. Hope this works!!

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Sun Oct 15 2017, 07:00

...and it didn't. Must make far bigger terrain pieces for the club so 8th edition will work better/

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Sun Oct 15 2017, 14:36

DEfan wrote:
...and it didn't. Must make far bigger terrain pieces for the club so 8th edition will work better/

Yeah, if you don't have a lot of large LoS blocking terrain pieces all of your games will be heavily skewed towards the long range shooty armies. Frontline Gaming, the guys who did a lot of the playtesting, straight said on some of their streams you need more terrain than ever.

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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Mon Oct 16 2017, 19:21

Just wanted to say, (and he reads thedarkcity so i'm hoping he sees this).

Lawrence went to Warhammer world with SM and used the basic OP list that i've been telling people to use and took 1st on Day 1.  Wish he would have taken DE to a powerhouse tournament, nothing against him, i like him and all and he is a really good player, just wish he would took DE.


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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Mon Oct 16 2017, 19:35

All those rerolls are to strong not to take them. I agree though I wish he had taken DE or even Ynnari.
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Wed Oct 18 2017, 20:53

Mad props for taking such wildly different armies to two events and placing 2nd and 1st. Proves once again the player matters more than the list.
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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Wed Oct 18 2017, 21:12

Just the 600pts of Razorbacks w/ Twin Assault Cannons will kill 52 T3 5+ save infantry models a turn.

IDK if we have 600pts that can do that. You cant win with a list of just Flyers (its literally impossible) so list does matter a lot, but so does player skill, you still need both and "luck" to win.


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PostSubject: Re: Tabletop Tactics - No Retreat V Tournament   Thu Oct 19 2017, 02:12

I believe I read something recently were Lawrence said he took the army to prove it was a point and click army. Not sure the validity of the statement but, he definitely said on his death guard tactics video that many armies are designed more to table than to play to objectives in the tournament meta right now.
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