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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 02:01

I am working on an analysis of the damage output of each of the units in the Drukhari index. The idea is to produce something similar to the Resilience Analysis, covering the damage output of each unit normalised based on cost.

The damage analysis is more complex because upgrades are important and there are a lot of combinations of unit upgrades, which becomes excessively time consuming for me. I plan to make some simplifications to the unit options considered, and would like some feedback on what I am planning. In particular, if I am excluding options you think are well worth it then please let me know.

I realise this is a bit of a wall of text, and I hope that wont put off responses. If I don't get any objections I will proceed with just the options below included  Smile

Character Loadouts
Archon:
Melee - Agoniser or Huskblade (Power Sword excluded)
Ranged - Splinter Pistol or Blaster (Blast Pistol and Phantasm Grenade Launcher excluded)

The PGL is an option I like, but it doesn't add much damage and increases the number of options to analyse. Alternatively, I could include the PGL with all non-pistol options. This will apply in the same way to other units that can take it, such as Kabalite Warriors.

The Power Sword is better than Agoniser in some situations (T2 or T3 where AP-3 can apply or T5 vehicles), but the Agoniser is better in the more common situations, so is preferred.

The Blast Pistol I find too short range to be reliable, as often it can't be fired even when charging.

Succubus:
Archite Glaive plus Splinter Pistol only (excluding Impaler, Agoniser and Blast Pistol)

There are cases where the other options are better, but they seem to be uncommon enough to ignore.

Lelith:
Two Penetrating Blades only (Impaler ignored)

Haemonculus:
Melee: Agoniser or Electrocorrosive Whip
Ranged: Splinter Pistol or Liquefier Gun

I'm not too confident on good loadouts for the Haemonculus, but have trimmed the options down to avoid excessive number of options to consider. Keen to know from those who use more often what I have missed.

Beastmaster: Agoniser only

Unit Configurations

Kabalite Warriors:
Unit size: 5 with special weapon or 10 with special and heavy weapon
Sybarite Agoniser and Splinter Rifle

For the Sybarite, I assumed an Agoniser would be added to give some extra melee punch. That does add a few points to the unit cost for those who would use only as a shooty unit. PGL excluded as per Archon.

Kabalite Trueborn:
Unit size: 5 with 4 special weapons
Dracon: Agoniser and Splinter Rifle

Does anyone use Trueborn for the two heavy weapons? Otherwise configuration similar to Kabalite Warriors.

Wyches and Hekatrix Bloodbrides:
Unit size: 5 with Wych Weapons
Hekatrix / Syren: Agoniser

Does anyone go for a 10 Wych unit to increase the number of Wych weapons?

Incubi:
Unit size: 5
Klaivex: Don't use Demiklaives

This assumes most people are playing points and not power levels, where the Demiklaives are not worth using.

Wracks:
Unit size: 5 with special weapon
Acothyst: Liquefier Gun* plus Agoniser

I don't own any Wracks, so I may be missing the optimal configurations. I'm assuming if the unit takes a Liquefier the Acothyst should too, but not if taking an Ossefactor.

Grotesques:
Unit size: 3
Either all Monstrous Cleavers or all Liquefier Guns

Reavers:
Unit size: 3 with special weapon and Grav Talon
Arena Champion: Agoniser

Hellions:
Unit size: 5
Helliarch: Agoniser or Hellglaive

Scourges:
Unit size: 5 with 4 special or heavy weapons
Solarite: No upgrade

Other Units
For units with aura effects (Court of the Archon and Beasts) assume either minimum size without aura or maximum size with aura and character. For example, single Clawed Fiend or Beastmaster and six Clawed Fiends.

Raiders and Ravagers - add Shock Prow

Talos - There are a lot of configuration options for the Talos, and I haven't experimented with many of them. Proposed options are either Dual Macro Scalpels or Macro Scalpels and Liquefier Guns and Stinger Pod or two Splinter Cannons.

Any unit not listed will consider all options, e.g. the Voidraven would look at Void Lances and Dark Scythes with and without missiles.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 08:05

Wow, this is a lot of work. Just reading this list of units is massive, let alone building a comparison of them.

First off, I'd highly recommend (if you aren't already) using my mathhammer calculator for all this, it is designed to do squads of different weapons for points differentials at different targets, and if you have any issues please feel free to contact me as we can add extra custom targets or custom weapons should you need them. Or additional rows/sheets of calculations.

On the units to use, I use trueborn with a mix of dark lances and blasters (and I'm thinking of throwing a splinter cannon in there to make them a legitimate threat against all targets at all times) as the damage against vehicles and multi-wound enemies is much better.

I know a few ppl use wyches with 10 wyches for the 3 weapons, and then giving the succubus hypex and hoofing it.

Haemonculus - Electro-whip all the way. If i could take an electro-whip on every squad leader I would probably do it... 2D agoniser, yes please. They become a legit threat against all targets then.

For mandrakes, can you do me a favor and do the numbers on Mandrakes AND Mandrakes in a venom. I think some people are going to be surprised at their numerical effectiveness.

Oh and Clawed Fiends!

Sorry if I'm piling more on you, but I'm happy to help out if you need some with the mathhammer calc.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 09:25

Thanks for the feedback Smile

I wasn't planning to use your calculator, as good as it is, as I have my own template that does the same job for me, and populates the tables I am using. I would have to do a lot of manual entry of results that would inevitably lead to some errors to use a different calculator.

For the Trueborn with Lances and Blasters what is the exact configuration? Is it 5 models with 2+2 or 7 models with 4+2?

Wych units and the Succubus aura was something I was overlooking. Might have to give that some extra thought.

Mandrakes and Clawed Fiends will be included. I generally was planning to have the transport separate to the unit inside, seeing as they will often fire at different targets, but can add a Mandrakes plus Venom entry.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 16:31

Quote :
Does anyone go for a 10 Wych unit to increase the number of Wych weapons?
10 wyches, 3 gauntlets, +1 attack drug. It's the best config for me. Optional : make a Hypex Succubus run behind the Raider.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 19:37

Thank you sir - will add in the 10 Wych option.

Succubus aura with Wych units - obviously Succubus plus Wyches (or Bloodbrides) could work as you describe. Is it worth considering for Reavers or Hellions? I'm excluding the aura for units where it wont make much difference (Beastmaster, Venoms, Raiders and Ravagers!).

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 20:05

Please check in advance that you do variable damage (eg. d3 damage vs 2 wounds =1.666... wounds) accurately and also variable AP (liquifier gun ap is likewise 1.666... vs guardsmen, or 3+/5++ targets). Because this sounds like it will be great, and those are things I (did a table in Tactics forum) and Splata missed the first time around.

I have no complaints about the compositions. Seems good. Ravagers should have all-dissie and all-lance versions.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 20:43

Succubus + Hellions isn't bad at all and could be calculated.

Reavers aren't really played for their damage and i wouldn't be surprized to see them bottom the analysis, so with or without Succubus is kinda irrelevant...

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 20:50

When I run wyches, I've always ran them as 1 succubus + 9 wyches with 1 hydra gauntlet. I know there's been discussion whether or not that's the most viable option, but they fit nicely in a raider, and from my experience, the 1 succubus has worked better than the 2 additional hydra gauntlets. Note, that's just based on my experience, not from any math on it so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:39

Keep it up!

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:41

@merse24 wrote:
When I run wyches, I've always ran them as 1 succubus + 9 wyches with 1 hydra gauntlet.  I know there's been discussion whether or not that's the most viable option, but they fit nicely in a raider, and from my experience, the 1 succubus has worked better than the 2 additional hydra gauntlets.  Note, that's just based on my experience, not from any math on it so far.

The thing is : you don't have to take the succubus away. Just give her Hypex and you can make her walk next to the raider. Works perfectly fine, and trust me, +2 hydra gauntlets changes A LOT of things.

Like, the 3 gauntlets usually kill more than the 7 others, and more than the succubus herself.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Tue Oct 10 2017, 09:16

Thanks for the extra feedback.

Lord Johan - will bear in mind the variable damage and AP. Variable damage was already accounted for, including the interaction with feel no pain (the average damage for a successful Lascannon wound against a Grotesque for example is a little messy to calculate), but I had been averaging the Liquefier Gun. Might need some review assistance once things are nearing completion.

Mppqlmd - will add in the Hellions plus Succubus as well.

A couple of quick questions to add in to the unit calculation mix:

1) Should I be excluding Agonisers from Haemonculi and Acothysts? Is it Electrocorrosive Whip all the way where available?

2) Wyches and Darklight Grenades - is it worth including the shooting of Darklight Grenades with their 6" range? I chose to exclude Blast Pistols on that basis, and it seems inconsistent to make Wyches look like they are OK at shooting mainly due to the grenades.

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Tue Oct 10 2017, 10:49

Unless we will also get a stratagem that let's the complete unit throw grenades like both guards have (IG and DG) I think leave the grenades out of it for now.

I like the addition of the hellions with succubus.
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Thu Oct 12 2017, 10:39

Here is a progress taster for the effectiveness of our unit options against MEQ.

Data shown is:
Unit Name = descriptive name for the unit
Points = cost of the unit with upgrades
Full effect shooting range = the shortest weapon range fired by the unit
Shooting Unsaved = number of unsaved wounds expected from a round of shooting
Shooting US/100 = the number of unsaved wounds normalised by dividing by the points cost of the unit and multiplying by 100
Melee Unsaved and Melee US/100 = as shooting but for melee attacks
Combined Unsaved = Shooting + Melee Unsaved
Combined US/100 = as per other US/100 calcs

Sorted by Combined US/100




Keen to hear comments on how easy to follow or useful that data is, so I can modify accordingly and ideally set up as a document others can interact with.

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Thu Oct 12 2017, 13:25

Well, it's neat enough, and already sorted. Looks fine enough for me !

Amazing job ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Thu Oct 12 2017, 17:15

So, this is showing Mandrakes as amazing, if they DS, shoot, and melee?

Did the Venoms with SC take into account being within 18 on all the entries?
I'm assuming so, with that said....

Venoms are by math per 100pts better without SC it seems (looking at Mandrakes in Venom vs In venom with SC)

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Thu Oct 12 2017, 22:36

Yes Mandrakes are amazingly good. They are up there with Medusae for shooting output, but without needing to be so close to the enemy, and nothing else is close when assaults are added to the mix. However, they are also super fragile to small arms fire. A bit of a glass cannon option.

The numbers are calculated on the basis of all weapons in the unit being in range. That gets especially interesting for the Venom...
The Venom is really similar in shooting points efficiency either with or without the second Splinter Cannon (1.40 US/100 with dual cannons vs 1.39 without).
However, the single cannon Venom would need to be within 12", while the dual cannon Venom can be at 18" to get full effect.
If you wanted to sit at 18" range to avoid getting charged, then the single Cannon Venom would drop from 10 shots to 9 shots, and the damage output from 1.39 to 1.25 US/100.
Ultimately performance is similar for either option - and my rule of thumb is an upgrade needs to be a clear improvement to be worthwhile, so I would go without the extra cannon.

When looking at Venoms with Mandrakes, even though the Venom is similar either with or without the second Cannon, the Venom is less efficient than the Mandrakes, so more points spent on the Venom dilutes the efficiency of the Mandrakes. My recommendation for Mandrakes in a Venom would be single cannon and sit at 18" range.

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 03:13

(Maybe offtopic but can we still field mandrakes in venoms ? I thought it had been errata with hellions & scourges)

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 04:59

Quote :
(Maybe offtopic but can we still field mandrakes in venoms ? I thought it had been errata with hellions & scourges)

You can, technically, but there's not really a reason to. They can get to their intended target easily enough, and the only defensive difference between the two is an extra wound and two points of toughness.

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 05:20

Looks really great.
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 06:38

@TheBaconPope - I'm getting Monty Python images in my mind...

Apart from the extra toughness, the extra wounds, the better save and the faster speed... what has the Venom ever done for us!

It takes about 3 times the small arms fire to get rid of Venoms as Mandrakes, so it is a decent option for them. Refer the resilience analysis above!

I'm working through some error checking, and a couple of features that aren't properly set up yet (mainly the Cronos weapons that do D3 damage on a 6+ to wound, and units with bonus on the charge). Once that is done I can easily roll it out for a variety of targets.

What targets are people interested in seeing? I'm thinking:
Guardsman
Ork
Space Marine
Terminator
Marine Biker
Land Speeder
Crimson Hunter
Leman Russ
Land Raider

Also, there are some assumptions I am making:
1) Units are not in cover for shooting
2) Turn one or two - so no +1 to hit for Power from Pain
3) Drukhari units getting the charge (for Ur-Ghuls and Shock Prows)

Any issues with those?

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 07:52

Maybe also a light vehicle (ork truck/sentinel/ our transports, something t5/6 and 4+)
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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 09:46

Fair call. Those are more common than Land Speeders, and should have something with an invulnerable save other than the Terminator. Will swap out the Land Speeder for a Raider.

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 17:04

Quote :
I'm getting Monty Python images in my mind...

Apart from the extra toughness, the extra wounds, the better save and the faster speed... what has the Venom ever done for us!

It takes about 3 times the small arms fire to get rid of Venoms as Mandrakes, so it is a decent option for them. Refer the resilience analysis above!

Ah, allow me to explain myself a bit. First, a Venom and a Unit of Mandrakes cost about the same. Second, one of the main benefits of the Venom over the Raider is Hard to Hit. Third, one of the main benefits of Mandrakes is their ability to Deep-Strike.

I'm opposed to starting Mandrakes in Venoms, as it negates their deployment mechanic (something I think is woefully lacking in our Index at the moment), they already share the same Hard to Hit mechanic as well as an Invuln, and, by taking a Venom, you sacrifice the ability to take another unit of Mandrakes. Further note that as far as ranged combat is concerned, Mandrakes are the superior unit, with a unit killing 4.81 GEQ and 2.78 MEQ (A Venom (Dual SC) kills only 2.67 GEQ and 1.33 MEQ respectively.)

Essentially what I'm saying is that the comparative resilience of a Venom is not worth the initial maneuverability and superior firepower of the Mandrakes.

Finally, note that I put an emphasis on starting the Mandrakes in Venoms, if a Venom wants to dump it's cargo (Something resilient in itself, like Incubi), then zoom to the Mandrakes so they can hitch a ride, I view that as a tactically advantageous decision.

I like the Monty Python reference by the way Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Unit configurations for damage analysis   Fri Oct 13 2017, 22:11

Mandrakes plus Venom does about 2/3 to 3/4 the damage in terms of points efficiency as spending the same points on Mandrakes. But the survivability is substantially higher.

I can understand your unwillingness to start Mandrakes in a Venom, and even if you take both in the list there is nothing stopping you from using deep strike, and perhaps aiming to meet up later in the battle.

However, sometimes deep strike isn't the best option - perhaps your opponent is able to area deny the locations you would want to deep strike, and so without the transport you have to line up against units you wouldn't ideally want to be in front of. If that happens, the Venom option gives you a way to hopefully get more rounds of shooting out of your Mandrakes.

Have finished the calculations across the unit types, and will post up the results later today.

Ended up swapping the Raider for a Sentinel (because I hadn't coded in invul saves for ranged only) and the Leman Russ for a Rhino (because I didn't want two T8 tanks).

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