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 Paying for Privilege

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 22:32

@DEfan wrote:
I know negative posts aren't necessarily helpful but 8th frustrates me. Parts of it have been great. Specifically, for open topped vehicles, too much has been taken away.
These vehicles are inherently more fragile in their construction. This is reflected by lower toughness values, save values and wounds. Fine.
The vehicle has a WYSIWG 360 degree field of vision. But now, effectively, so do all vehicles; facings do not matter.
Passengers appear to be able to jump out of an encased vehicle regardless of where the doors are. So everyone has gained from benefits that used to be specifically for open topped vehicles.
Passengers should be able to overwatch or fire when advancing. We use hit modifiers now.
Embarking/disembarking after moving makes sense. That's always been a thing, to varying extents, since I started in 4th ed. Until now.
Auras could work and should. Not that our current character auras are all that inspiring.
Gaargh! I love how my Harlequins have been working but some aspects of the 8th DE army design just make me internally combust.  

I know what you mean.

Honestly though, I think the worst part was the huge increase in the cost of our transports.

Yeah, I know other armies had their transports go up in price as well, but the difference is that their armies aren't built around those transports.

For example, my IG Chimeras are about twice the price, but I can easily run my infantry without them - either just using 1-2 of them for vital units, or else dropping them entirely and using other means to get troops forward (e.g. Scions).

With Necrons, I didn't even bother with transports in 7th and so their becoming more expensive hasn't affected my army in the slightest.

With DE though, the army is based around transports. If you want to use Warriors, Wyches, Trueborn, Bloodbrides, Incubi, Wracks, Grotesques, Sslyth, Medusae, Ur Ghuls and/or Lhamaeans etc. (to say nothing of our HQs) then you're going to want a Venom or Raider. You could maybe argue for footslogging Wracks or Grotesques, but for the rest there's really no alternative. Indeed, those transports are basically our sole claim to being a fast army.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 07:14

@The Shredder wrote:

With DE though, the army is based around transports. If you want to use Warriors, Wyches, Trueborn, Bloodbrides, Incubi, Wracks, Grotesques, Sslyth, Medusae, Ur Ghuls and/or Lhamaeans etc. (to say nothing of our HQs) then you're going to want a Venom or Raider. You could maybe argue for footslogging Wracks or Grotesques, but for the rest there's really no alternative. Indeed, those transports are basically our sole claim to being a fast army.

I think this is only partly true.
Move 7/8 is more then most other infantry.
We still have bikes and jump troops (hellions) like other armies often also an inch or what faster than the alternatives. And those options both have fly, unlike marine bikers.
We still have beasts etc with a move around 10-12.

The problem is that we are squishy (even if we are not squishy enough for some people). Which means that if we do not hit first we will die.
Now I think this is not a problem stemming from the cost of our basic troops.

Harlequins cost a lot more, (21 points compared to our 9)
But gain a lot as well: +d6 movement, better shooting, a 4++, fly, charge from combat, double the attacks, and -3 ap.
Which shows part of the problem. They are nearly twice as survivable as us, deal twice (against something without a save) to 8 times (against a 2+ save) the damage and are a lot more mobile. (Now with power from pain this becomes slightly less in their favour, but this is also without considering the better buffs they can get from their HQ and psyker.) And really shows the glass canon.
The major problem we have is that our "fast glass canons" are faster than average but do not charge that much further. Are at or below guardsman defenses. And fight worse then your average space marine. And I think our major problem comes when compared to melee hordes, compare them to an ork and we are just plain bad.

We are faster, except during the charge when they are faster.
Our defenses are slightly better in melee but worse against shooting.
They deal more damage in melee while we shoot slightly better.
We have a special rule to keep some enemies in melee, but it does not work against the ones where we need it the most, and it is only a 50% chance. While they ignore most morale issues.
We cost a whole lote more.
They got a lot better support.

Both of these options have similar vehicles as we do (truck is a cheap nonflying raider, starweaver is what a venom should have been.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 10:42

@|Meavar wrote:

I think this is only partly true.
Move 7/8 is more then most other infantry.

It's more, yes, but it's also an insignificant difference. Especially when you remember that this is instead of Jump Packs, Bikes etc. on those units.

e.g. an Archon has 2" more movement than a SM Captain. However, a SM Captain with a Jump Pack has 4" more movement than the Archon. And the Archon has no recourse to this.

And that's before we even get into other factors - like other armies being able to Advance and charge or Advance and shoot without penalty.


What's more, our army is simply not well-suited to footslogging in the first place. Our models are too expensive to be fielded as proper hordes, too fragile to be survivable outside of transports, are severely lacking in long-range firepower and our army is almost completely devoid of infantry buffs.

@|Meavar wrote:

We still have bikes and jump troops (hellions) like other armies often also an inch or what faster than the alternatives. And those options both have fly, unlike marine bikers.

Sure. But that's just a small fraction of our army. And if the only qualification to being a fast army is 'having some fast units' then *every* army is a fast army.

Also, again, an inch or so more just isn't significant. Even less so when you remember that our long-range weapons have 12" less range than those of most other armies.

@|Meavar wrote:

The problem is that we are squishy (even if we are not squishy enough for some people). Which means that if we do not hit first we will die.
Now I think this is not a problem stemming from the cost of our basic troops.

Harlequins cost a lot more, (21 points compared to our 9)
But gain a lot as well: +d6 movement, better shooting, a 4++, fly, charge from combat, double the attacks, and -3 ap.
Which shows part of the problem. They are nearly twice as survivable as us, deal twice (against something without a save) to 8 times (against a 2+ save) the damage and are a lot more mobile. (Now with power from pain this becomes slightly less in their favour, but this is also without considering the better buffs they can get from their HQ and psyker.) And really shows the glass canon.

Serious question - do you find Harlequins to be that survivable?

They seem rather squishy to me. I get that they have 4++ saves, but on T3 that doesn't seem particularly great.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 11:08

I never said they are not squishy. They defenitly are, but still they are a lot more survivable then us, which they also need since they cost twice as much as we do.
I said they have roughly double the survivability of wyches. Part of this comes from their 4++ but they also have some other things going for them being able to move over models and terrain as if it where not there which on boards with line of sight blocking terrain greatly enhances survivability and nearly always enhances speed. And this is before looking at their buffs, -1 to hit and to wound, getting an extra move.
I think harlequins are great as a fast squishy glas hammer. Which is why I make the comparison. But then when I compare them with our hellions I can just not help but cry a little.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 11:35

Had a game earlier. Alpha legion made an absolute mockery of our "mobility". Deep Striking or infiltrating meant that he had everything in my face turn 1, and in sufficient numbers to box me in.

Luckily I had an absolute crap-ton of firepower trueborn, but he killed my transports within a turn thanks to obliterators so they were stuck holed up in a building for the entire game. But I payed for the privilege of our tansports and they got wiped out turn 1, with little I could really do to protect them.

My outflank unit got tied up with beserkers turn 1, which didn't help.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 11:43

It bugs me that one of the new IG doctrines gives away our advantage for free (vehicles ignore the penalties for firing Heavy weapons when moving).

I can understand Leman Russ getting this, as it was always their thing (then again, so was moving slowly). However, it doesn't seem right that Chimeras, Tauroxes and even Artillery should get this benefit.

And I say this as an IG player.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 12:13

Did you win @FuelDrop

Doctrine? You mean a certain regiment treats all heavy weapons as assault weapons on tanks?

Until now, I'm curious what we will get.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 12:23

I did win in point of fact. Managed to shoot him to bits with an absolutely unreasonable amount of firepower, with good screening via warriors to keep my trueborn from getting shot up.

Honestly it felt a lot like playing guard, using infantry squads as screening units to protect heavy weapons teams. It felt nothing like a DE game should feel.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 13:05

@CptMetal wrote:
Doctrine? You mean a certain regiment treats all heavy weapons as assault weapons on tanks?

Indeed - Tallarn.

In addition, their infantry get Battle Focus - in that they can Advance and still fire non-Heavy weapons (and any Assault weapons ignore the -1 penalty).

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 13:45

Codices are all loaded with special rules, and are superior in terms of power to Indices. Until we get a codex, there is gonna be a lot of "X army gets this special rule, so unfair".

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 14:15

Due to the lack of sunlight we are quite white. That's white privilege for us XD
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 14:23

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Codices are all loaded with special rules, and are superior in terms of power to Indices. Until we get a codex, there is gonna be a lot of "X army gets this special rule, so unfair".

That's true, but it's still rather disconcerting to see the rules for basically two different fast armies (Battle Focus from Eldar and no move-and-shoot penalty for vehicles from Dark Eldar) just given away to another army for free.

Oh well, maybe GW will let us nick their Orders and call it even. pirat

@CptMetal wrote:
Due to the lack of sunlight we are quite white. That's white privilege for us XD

Wait, are you talking about us or the army we play? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 14:32

What if Cult units gain the ability to advance and charge... that's more of a genestealer power, innit ?

I agree, it feels bad when another faction feels more "dark eldar" than the Dark Eldar themselves (kinda was the case for Corsairs in 7e), but when everyone gets a ton of new special rules, it's kinda inevitable that rules are going to overlap.

I do hope we do get some "IG" powers. Maybe not orders, but force-multiplying HQs (which is one of the main IG signatures)

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 15:14

@Mppqlmd wrote:
What if Cult units gain the ability to advance and charge... that's more of a genestealer power, innit ?

Well, it's also a Harlequin one, but then Harlequins already seem more like Wyches than actual Wyches. Razz

Regardless, I think being able to get out of moving transports would be more beneficial to them (since unlike genestealers and Harlequeins, they're really not built for footslogging).

@Mppqlmd wrote:

I agree, it feels bad when another faction feels more "dark eldar" than the Dark Eldar themselves (kinda was the case for Corsairs in 7e), but when everyone gets a ton of new special rules, it's kinda inevitable that rules are going to overlap.

That's true. I'll try and restrain my irritation until the DE codex drops.

@Mppqlmd wrote:

I do hope we do get some "IG" powers. Maybe not orders, but force-multiplying HQs (which is one of the main IG signatures)

Seconded.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 16:19

Quote :
Harlequins already seem more like Wyches than actual Wyches.
This is so true it hurts.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 18:50

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Harlequins already seem more like Wyches than actual Wyches.
This is so true it hurts.

Been saying this since Harlequins codex 1st came out XD

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:43

@The Shredder wrote:
@DEfan wrote:
I know negative posts aren't necessarily helpful but 8th frustrates me. Parts of it have been great. Specifically, for open topped vehicles, too much has been taken away.
These vehicles are inherently more fragile in their construction. This is reflected by lower toughness values, save values and wounds. Fine.
The vehicle has a WYSIWG 360 degree field of vision. But now, effectively, so do all vehicles; facings do not matter.
Passengers appear to be able to jump out of an encased vehicle regardless of where the doors are. So everyone has gained from benefits that used to be specifically for open topped vehicles.
Passengers should be able to overwatch or fire when advancing. We use hit modifiers now.
Embarking/disembarking after moving makes sense. That's always been a thing, to varying extents, since I started in 4th ed. Until now.
Auras could work and should. Not that our current character auras are all that inspiring.
Gaargh! I love how my Harlequins have been working but some aspects of the 8th DE army design just make me internally combust.  

I know what you mean.

Honestly though, I think the worst part was the huge increase in the cost of our transports.

Yeah, I know other armies had their transports go up in price as well, but the difference is that their armies aren't built around those transports.

For example, my IG Chimeras are about twice the price, but I can easily run my infantry without them - either just using 1-2 of them for vital units, or else dropping them entirely and using other means to get troops forward (e.g. Scions).

With Necrons, I didn't even bother with transports in 7th and so their becoming more expensive hasn't affected my army in the slightest.

With DE though, the army is based around transports. If you want to use Warriors, Wyches, Trueborn, Bloodbrides, Incubi, Wracks, Grotesques, Sslyth, Medusae, Ur Ghuls and/or Lhamaeans etc. (to say nothing of our HQs) then you're going to want a Venom or Raider. You could maybe argue for footslogging Wracks or Grotesques, but for the rest there's really no alternative. Indeed, those transports are basically our sole claim to being a fast army.

I'm not buying into all of the complaints regarding our transports.  First off, DE has always been about their use of transports, (Kabals at least).  It's part of the fluff and it's a big part of what makes us Dark Eldar.  All vehicles went up in price, but so did their reliability.

As far as being Open-Topped, I feel that DE are in a much better place than we were in 7th.  First off, there's now a LOT less options to fire out of a vehicle in 8th.  In order to do so, it HAS to be open topped. Open topped has always had it's vulnerability, even in 7th.  The "No Escape" rule (I think that's what it was called) could play a huge role and basically wipe everything inside the transport with a flamer.  Yes we did lose overwatch from the vehicles, but we did gain the ability to fire while advancing.  Yeah, there is a -1 to hit modifier, but it's better than what we had before.  We can now also move and fire a heavy weapon out of a transport, again with a modifier, but it's still more than we had before.


@FuelDrop
Did an Alpha Legion alpha strike seriously destroy ALL of your transports??  That seems very unlikely to me.  I've found that DE typically have enough redundancy to weather most every alpha strike and have the ability to strike back very hard.  

If they didn't destroy all of your transports, then you couldn't be boxed in, since everything has the fly keyword, you can just move over them to where you want to go.  But I'll also say, when playing against Alpha Legion, you want them close.  You suffer a to hit penalty when firing from >12" away.  Defeating Alpha Legion is all about getting close to their units that have good mobility and staying away from their units that are slow.  

And congrats on pulling out the win, despite the rough start!  Sounds like you played it as well as you could have.  It may not have felt like a traditional DE battle, but a good Archon will always adapt to the mission and employ whatever strategy he can to get the win!
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:59

@merse24 wrote:
First off, DE has always been about their use of transports, (Kabals at least).  It's part of the fluff and it's a big part of what makes us Dark Eldar.

Yes, I know. That's why huge cost increases for our transports is such an issue.

@merse24 wrote:
All vehicles went up in price, but so did their reliability.

Except ours really didn't.

Yes, they're less likely to be one-shotted, but they're still incredibly fragile and it's just not reflected in their cost.

@merse24 wrote:

As far as being Open-Topped, I feel that DE are in a much better place than we were in 7th.  First off, there's now a LOT less options to fire out of a vehicle in 8th.  In order to do so, it HAS to be open topped. Open topped has always had it's vulnerability, even in 7th.

...

Yes we did lose overwatch from the vehicles, but we did gain the ability to fire while advancing. Yeah, there is a -1 to hit modifier, but it's better than what we had before.  We can now also move and fire a heavy weapon out of a transport, again with a modifier, but it's still more than we had before.

I responded to basically the same point a while back, so I'm just going to quote what I said there:

2) Whilst it's a nice rule in theory, we don't have many units that can make good use out of it.
- Trueborn are certainly good, but I'd argue that they're the only unit we have that really fulfils that role.
- Our basic warriors are okay but their shooting is far from impressive (at the very least, I'm uncomfortable paying for a transport that costs about twice as much as they do). To avoid any argument, let's say they're good, too.
- Mandrakes also have good shooting, though it could be argued that taking them in a transport is wasting several of their abilities. But, again, for the sake of argument let's just say they're good in this role.
- Scourges are probably our best non-vehicle shooting unit . . . and are banned from all our transports.
- Sslyth and Medusae may appreciate being in transports, though doing this is rather wasting the durability of the former, and the minuscule range of the latter's weapon is likely compromising the safety of the transport.
- Of our HQs, only the Archon has the option for a meaningful ranged weapon. Not only that, but putting him in a transport is a pain because of the lack of space in our transports and the fact that every squad bar the Court fills a Venom even at minimum size.

Then we have the 5 other HQs, Lhamaeans, Ur-Ghuls, Wyches, Bloodbrides, Incubi, Wracks and Grotesques - all of which want to be hitting the enemy in melee, not cooped up in a transport. Even if we doscount HQ choices and are very generous with the units that benefit from open-topped transports, we're still left with 5 Infantry units that benefit and 7 that don't.

In essence, whilst open topped is nice, the majority of our Infantry and HQ units are much more melee oriented and so lose more than they gain by being stuck in transports. This leads me to:

3) Open topped does nothing whatsoever for melee units. This is a huge blow for our transports as it means they are no better for our melee units than Rhinos or Chimeras (arguably worse, as the latter at least has extra spaces for characters).

The open-topped rule is nice (and I appreciate that our vehicles are no longer death-traps), but it is only of benefit to dedicated shooting units, whilst the majority of our Infantry and HQs in need of transports are melee-focused.

Also, I'd just like the option of more variety. Yes, DE in transports is iconic, but it can also get really tedious when it's your only choice. In addition, I think the 'iconic' ship sailed when GW chose to ban the Archon from riding with either his elites (Trueborn) or guards/warriors (Incubi) in a Venom.  Razz



@merse24 wrote:
 The "No Escape" rule (I think that's what it was called) could play a huge role and basically wipe everything inside the transport with a flamer.

The no-escape rule should never have been introduced in the first place.

If I might employ a rather crude metaphor, once you put a dog-turd on a cake, you don't get points back for scraping it off.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 20:21

@merse24 wrote:

@FuelDrop
Did an Alpha Legion alpha strike seriously destroy ALL of your transports??  That seems very unlikely to me.  I've found that DE typically have enough redundancy to weather most every alpha strike and have the ability to strike back very hard.  

If they didn't destroy all of your transports, then you couldn't be boxed in, since everything has the fly keyword, you can just move over them to where you want to go.  But I'll also say, when playing against Alpha Legion, you want them close.  You suffer a to hit penalty when firing from >12" away.  Defeating Alpha Legion is all about getting close to their units that have good mobility and staying away from their units that are slow.  

And congrats on pulling out the win, despite the rough start!  Sounds like you played it as well as you could have.  It may not have felt like a traditional DE battle, but a good Archon will always adapt to the mission and employ whatever strategy he can to get the win!


To add to the Alpha strike, other than IG, CSM has one of the most insane Alpha strike armies.

I have 3 hardcore CSM players at my local and they are for sure the hardest to fight againt.

With Noise marines, Obliterators, and Havoc's in cover fora 2+/-1 to hit. It can REALLY put out insane damage and stay for a few turns without worry.

I mean a unit of 5 Noise Marines with 1 Blastmaster is 95pts...... Each one is ML that ignores cover.
Then the 3 Havocs each have 1 ML that can do D3 mortal wounds on a Fly unit and the other 3 in each squad are Autocannons or HB's (many are doing HB for more Anti-horde).


The number 1 IG player at Nova even said that CSM scares him the most and can most likely be number 1 once more players fluff it out a bit. The only game he almost lost was against a Noise Marine and Khorne Zerker army, he said if he kill 1 less Zerker and Noise marine unit he would have lost.

There is a podcast of him on dakka somewhere talking about it in the Tournament section.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 20:31

On the matter of transports, I've stated it before, but my main issue is that we have transports that are seemingly designed to ferry high value elite targets, yet are needed to carry just about everything. Other armies, like Space Marines, get around this problem by having specialized vehicles for anything, but, given that it's unlikely that we'll get any more chassis's for the foreseeable future, the solution in my mind is to slash the abilities of Raiders and Venoms to barebone levels, then add them back in a plethora of upgrades. That way, you can still have a unit of Incubi cruise around in a pimped out Venom, but the Kabalite Chaff can make due with something more appropriately priced.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 21:04

Over 1/2 the armies have 3+, DE has 3 also, there are a few with 2 and only 1 with (harlequins) and 1 with 0 (admech).

I dont think its a matter of to little transports but that lack of buffs for them and our units and a bit over costed.

If Venom and raider went down 10-15pts and then had option upgrades, we be good. Oh and SPlinter cannon goes down too, so a venom with 2 SC would be around 80pts and IMO thats a perfect point level for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 21:43

I was intending the consolidating out of a transport to be into the combat that the raider was in. Sorry I didn't specify that. It would let the wyches assault out of a transport while keeping a balancing turn in there where they can't fight. Or get hit, so... The free turn at them isn't a problem. And shouldn't be with their lock-down. If that is reliable later on.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 21:51

Honestly DE really only have 2 transports that are accessable to everyone ... Venom and raiders ... (Yes I realize that the Tantalus counts as a transport but I'm going for stuff that a new player is bound to see in a shop ... And the Tantalus isn't one that is ever seen in my area ... I'm pretty sure I'm the only one in my area that has one and most people don't know what it does or that it existed so...) And sadly the only one that does what it really should for it's points is the Tantalus ... And it's technically a heavy support with transport capabilities ... I would be more than happy if our transports gained scything charge and aether sails ... Would make them worth their points ... And another point ... Most of our troops don't actually get to shoot after the raider advances as their weapons are "rapid fire" instead of assault so they can't fire ... Only the raider would be able to and from what I can tell under these rules the venom cannot shoot after it advances ... I might be wrong however.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:01

@FuelDrop
Did an Alpha Legion alpha strike seriously destroy ALL of your transports?? That seems very unlikely to me. I've found that DE typically have enough redundancy to weather most every alpha strike and have the ability to strike back very hard.


Two words: Slaaneshi oblitroators. Functional equivalent of 24 blaster shots deep striking in turn 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:28

@FuelDrop wrote:
@FuelDrop
Did an Alpha Legion alpha strike seriously destroy ALL of your transports??  That seems very unlikely to me.  I've found that DE typically have enough redundancy to weather most every alpha strike and have the ability to strike back very hard.  


Two words: Slaaneshi oblitroators. Functional equivalent of 24 blaster shots deep striking in turn 1.

Yeah, players that dont know CSM true power are going to be surprised soon. Double shooting, Ignore cover, can shoot when they die, can DS etc... etc...

I was doing 10 Slaneesh Termies with Plasma , you get to shoot all of that at the same time x2, and a lord for re-roll so you can over-charge.  40x S8 AP-3 D2 shots re-roll 1's.

On average that is 14 wounds to Raiders (after invuls etc..), thats a Dead Raider with 1 shot, then you use the "Endless Cacophony" to shoot again to kill another, this is without the bolters or the Noise/Havoc's in the back. You could Shoot the Bolters and the Plasma at the same time for 10 wounds to Raider from Plasma then the Bolters at something else.

I didnt do that math for Oblits i guess i could give me a few minutes, they might be better (due to cost).

Edit:
So 3 Oblits is 7 damage to Raider, thats cheaper for sure, but you cant guaranteed a kill like you can with Termies. Oblits are for sure more damage per Point in shooting against Raiders tho. But the Termies can melee and shoot 2 guns.

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