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 Paying for Privilege

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 01:04

So one thing that keeps coming up in discussions is the concept of "Paying for Privilege", a factor that seems to come up a lot in DE. Basically, it means you're paying extra for the opportunity to do something, whether you want it or not.

A prime example is our transports. We are paying a premium for Open Topped, which is a great ability... for exactly two of our units that can take transports. If you take a unit of incubi in a venom, they are paying the same amount but are unable to take advantage of open topped in the same way as a unit of blasterborn.

This is bad because it pushes players towards a specific playstyle, favoring spamming a small niche of units that can actually take advantage of the transport's abilities rather than using others that pay the same premium for no gain.

Another example of paying for privilege is the Trueborn themselves. They cost 4 points a model more than warriors, almost a 60% increase. And if you don't take special/heavy weapons on top of that, you are paying for a single extra melee attack. No special rules, no default special wargear, no survivability increase. 60% more for a single extra attack on a shooty unit.

As a result you are obligated to then spend more points on special and heavy weapons just to make the squad worthwhile. The squad in and of itself gains no real benefit.

Thoughts?

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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 01:56

I have been arguing the same. I wish for trueborn at least we would get shardcarbins or a better save, ghostplate or something. Having to pay more for a kabalite just so you can upgrade the weapons is frustrating. Specially when you have to pay another 15 or 20 per gun.
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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 03:58

I'd like trueborn to get shardcarbines. Just like I'd like warriors to get shardcarbines. Don't with the splinter rifle. Ghostplate on trueborn would be pretty cool. Maybe also make them a GOOD hybrid unit by adding a unique melee weapon. PfP is all melee after all.
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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 04:02

The transports are a tough thing. You have to pay somewhere. Maybe... if they got a faction specific rule for kabal/wych/coven and the kabal one was something like splinter racks, wyches have an improved Shock Ram that lets them consolidate out of the raider after combat, and haemonculi have a debuff or something.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 08:16

The big element that Fueldrop has raised for me, is not so much that you pay for the privilege, but where do you pay for it?

In the case of a venom;
Do you pay for open topped on the venom? In which case Incubi in a venom are paying for something that they gain no benefit from.
Or do you pay for it on the squad that goes into it as they get the benefit? In which case if they foot slog they are paying for something they gain no benefit from.

Perhaps it has to be looked at more holistically; when designing the army you decide how the army will generally work and then price according to that, and yes that does guide you down a certain path to get the most out of an army but that becomes the "flavour" of the army. And hence, some paying for the privilige must occur to keep our flavour.

(agreed on trueborn btw. They should have better weapons and perhaps armour for their points, as I've said before.)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 09:35

On the specific instance of open-topped I think the solution is to have it benefit non-shooty units in some way too. The most obvious example being disembark after movement.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 10:33

Agreed, don't see why we shouldn't be able too. We're known to be insane and jump out of our Raiders as they're zooming along as it is. I think this would give us the edge we need with some units.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 11:11

Let's brainstorm some ideas for alternative melee open topped effects, either beyond or in addition to disembarking from the transport after moving.

1) Instead of disembarking after moving, disembarking units get an extra d6 movement due to the extra momentum and hitting the ground running.

2) Units can board open topped transports as part of consolidation.

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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 11:42

I like the idea of being able to disembark out of the transport as consolidation. Maybe AFTER combat for balance reasons. It would pair well with a better shock prow.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 11:48

@RegoCrux wrote:
I like the idea of being able to disembark out of the transport as consolidation. Maybe AFTER combat for balance reasons. It would pair well with a better shock prow.

Why would you want to disembark after combat? You're just leaving yourself vulnerable for the enemies turn.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 12:04

Yeah that'd be a no-no. You're just exposing yourself for a turn and we all know we can't stand for long.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 12:06

1)a Units can disembark 6 inch instead of 3
1)b Units can advance and charge after disembarking (this also has less impact on other open topped vehicles I think since harlequins already can (and they don't need another buff) and orks also already have easy acces to it anyway.

2) Units inside also suffer a hit/wound on a 6 to hit/wound against the vehicle (I think it would make sense that units inside are not completely invurnerable to normal shooting at the vehicle if it is open topped.

I think the major advantage would be for wyches who would then have their 4++ save. But I am also not really in favour of that.
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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 12:15

I'd rather not give the enemy another chance to hurt me...

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 12:19

So maybe the tax should be on specific wargear for the Raider/Venom such as Splinter Racks for Kabs and perhaps for melee a specific upgrade that allows you to disembark at the end of the movement phase.

That way you choose the tax that benefits you most. Reduce the cost of the transport slightly and give the option to upgrade as you see fit.

I would love this to be a thing!
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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 12:23

Would make sense for me and I'd be ok with it. Kit it out to its role. One can hope.

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 14:22

If the vehicle is witin 1" of an enemy unit, unit(s) inside may fight in the fight phase as if they were within 1" of any unit that is within 1" of the vehicle's hull. If the vehicle charged this turn, then the units inside also fight as if they had charged this turn. (Hey, why not? It would put us on par with Ynnari)
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 16:47

Quote :
Units can board open topped transports as part of consolidation.
Can't you already do that ? If you end a move within 3" of the vehicle, you can board in. Consolidation is a move.
Has this been mentionned in FAQs ?

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 17:17

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Units can board open topped transports as part of consolidation.
Can't you already do that ? If you end a move within 3" of the vehicle, you can board in. Consolidation is a move.
Has this been mentionned in FAQs ?

Sadly no

Q: Can I embark within a transport at any time
other than in the Movement phase, such as following
a consolidate move that takes a unit within 3" of
a transport?
A: No. You may only embark within or disembark a
transport in the Movement phase, unless a rule or ability
explicitly says otherwise.
(from Stepping into a new edition of Warhammer 40,000)

I think you could argue that you could do this with Ynnari though. If you end up fighting in the movement phase somehow.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 17:25

Frak. Thanks Smile

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 17:27

I'd like to fire Overwatch from open topped vehicles. Don't understand why we cannot.
Doesn't help the melee units one bit. But I'd still like this to be a thing.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 17:33

I think it would be reasonnable for Open-topped to give a bonus to charge distance for units that disembarked this turn.
The "boarding plank" for Orkz Vehicles used to give +3 to the charge roll. It's pretty sweet.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:35

Maybe be able to charge from the transport? So if the enemy fires overwatch, he can only hit the transport?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:42

Alternatively, an elegant and simple solution would be to increase to 6" the disembark/reembark distance.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 22:09

Regarding Trueborn, they should be - at most - 1pt more than Warriors. That would pay for their pointless extra attack. They 'pay' for getting more special weapons by being in the Elite slot.

In terms of transports, I agree about Open Topped. What about something like this: "If the Transport moved less than half its movement speed, it is treated as having remained stationary for the purpose of disembarking embarked units."

Or: "If the transport moved, embarked units may disembark up to 3" at the end of the Movement Phase. They may not Advance or move any further during this Movement Phase."


That said, I think Venoms really need looking at in terms of their guns. At the very least, Splinter Cannons need to be made 36" Assault 6. Their current stats are a joke (especially with twin-cannon Venoms now costing ~50% more).
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for Privilege   Mon Oct 09 2017, 22:10

I know negative posts aren't necessarily helpful but 8th frustrates me. Parts of it have been great. Specifically, for open topped vehicles, too much has been taken away.
These vehicles are inherently more fragile in their construction. This is reflected by lower toughness values, save values and wounds. Fine.
The vehicle has a WYSIWG 360 degree field of vision. But now, effectively, so do all vehicles; facings do not matter.
Passengers appear to be able to jump out of an encased vehicle regardless of where the doors are. So everyone has gained from benefits that used to be specifically for open topped vehicles.
Passengers should be able to overwatch or fire when advancing. We use hit modifiers now.
Embarking/disembarking after moving makes sense. That's always been a thing, to varying extents, since I started in 4th ed. Until now.
Auras could work and should. Not that our current character auras are all that inspiring.
Gaargh! I love how my Harlequins have been working but some aspects of the 8th DE army design just make me internally combust.

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