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 An alternate form of trueborn

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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 06:16

Been toying with a concept.

What if, instead of being elite warriors, Trueborn were our heavy infantry and both they and warriors had elite versions?

My idea is that the basic trueborn would have the same stats as warriors, but be equipped with ghostplate and shardcarbines, pistols, grenades (both av and ai), and could take one special weapon per 3 squad members, but lack heavy weapons as they are more focused on short range firepower.

The elite version of Warriors are outfitted with up to four heavy weapons, and get a special rule that allows them to eliminate priority targets (such as characters and heavy vehicles. Maybe if they don't move they can target characters and reroll 1's on damage rolls?)

The elite version of trueborn would pack an extra attack, and be able to take up to 4 special weapons regardless of squad size. Maybe a special rule that lets them reroll failed hits at half range and during overwatch?

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 08:27

For the trueborn elites, how would it be different from having an upgrade to current trueborn to have splinter carbines or just had them off the bat (which was their initial purpose in 5th ed)

Sorry if it seems like I'm just shooting down the idea, I just don't really get the purpose of the elite form of trueborn w extra attacks.
The heavy squad of warriors would be very reminiscent of the 3rd Ed codex, of which you'd hear no complaints from me for a squad like that, as it would make ravagers less of an auto pick.

On a side note the way that points are worked out in this ed, I'd say that if you took a warriors points as a bench mark then a trueborn should come stock with a shard carbine for their points.  My reasoning being, as a general rule when you double a units firepower you add 50% points on to it.
A splinter rifle at 12 inches fires 2 shots, carbine 3. 50% increase.
A splinter rifle at 18 inches fires 1 shot , carbine 3. Triple.
So across those tests a rifle fires 3shots, a carbine 6.
Double damage.and the points slightly over a 50% increase.

Admittedly you get a negative at 24 inches and a greater reduction in value with the addition of special weapons so perhaps ghost plate should be thrown in as well.
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 09:34

The only real difference between my "elite trueborn" and current trueborn with shardcarbines and ghostplate is virtually nothing... which is intentional. Trueborn as they are perform a vital function in our army and messing with that too much doesn't strike me as a great thing to do. I kinda want to refine it to "Trueborn = Special Weapons, Warriors = Heavy Weapons"

My basic concept is that Warriors are there to soften up the enemy at long range, hence the rifles and fairly light armour, plus lots of heavy weapons. They are shooting from far away, circling around and taking out major threats.
Trueborn would be given the privilege of getting to kill at point blank range, their heavy Ghostplate protecting them from enemy return fire while their shardcarbines and special weapons pour death on the enemy from point blank range, maybe following up with an assault to finish them off.

The idea is that Warriors, being vatborn, are not generally afforded the same opportunities to inflict pain and suffering like Trueborn are, but are instead there to ensure the raid goes according to plan and plenty of slaves are taken. This is why they get the heavy weapons, so that they can eliminate enemy heavy hitters before they become a problem. Trueborn are there to savor the pain on the battlefield, and are thus outfitted to get in close and hit very hard at the kind of range where they can really enjoy the enemy's screams.

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 10:10

Reminds me of 7e Corsairs. Which were amazing and fun.

This should be in "rules development" though.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 10:25

@Lord Johan wrote:
Reminds me of 7e Corsairs. Which were amazing and fun.

This should be in "rules development" though.

Good point. Thread moved - Count Adhemar

With regard to the original concept, I have a bit of a problem with DE having any form of 'Heavy Infantry'. It just doesn't seem to fit into our 'style'. I'd be very happy with Trueborn getting +1BS and access to better and more varied special/heavy weaponry. A cross between Sternguard and Devastators.

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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 11:17

Forgive me, but I'm a little confused.
You suggest making Trueborn seperate, and then provide a new Elite form of Warrior which is basically what Trueborn are not, with more weapons and a special rule.

Why not just just - make a new heavy armour unit.

As is, I don't see the need for adding new units. Trueborn work well now, but I would agree that they would be excellent with Ghostplate Armour.
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 11:48

The major problem with trueborn right now is that they cost quite a lot. While you get 1 ld and 1 attack this barely makes them any better since their major bonus is the ability to carry more special weapons.
So effectively you pay 50% more just for the ability to carry more special weapons. And a lot of people consider it worth it, so aparently they are not that much overpriced compared to other options.

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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 12:01

@Squidmaster wrote:
Forgive me, but I'm a little confused.
You suggest making Trueborn seperate, and then provide a new Elite form of Warrior which is basically what Trueborn are not, with more weapons and a special rule.

Why not just just - make a new heavy armour unit.

As is, I don't see the need for adding new units. Trueborn work well now, but I would agree that they would be excellent with Ghostplate Armour.

So the reasoning is fluff based. Trueborn are the rich kids, not veteran Kabalites. As a result, while having them better equipped than Kabalites makes sense, having them as the elite version does not.

After all, there is no path for a Kabalite to become a Trueborn. I don't care how good you are, you just cannot do it.

That is why I want to split them into Warriors and the better equipped Trueborn, with Veteran versions of both. Because technically speaking, right now, there is no way to field elite warriors on the battlefield. You can have warriors, or you can have Trueborn, but the latter is not an elite version of the former.
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 12:51

Quote :
Trueborn are the rich kids, not veteran Kabalites. As a result, while having them better equipped than Kabalites makes sense, having them as the elite version does not
You could argue that not being born in a mass-production vat system would help your physical integrity. Vat-born are, in my vision of the DE, physically handicaped by the mean of production, which makes Trueborn more "agile".

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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 12:54

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Trueborn are the rich kids, not veteran Kabalites. As a result, while having them better equipped than Kabalites makes sense, having them as the elite version does not
You could argue that not being born in a mass-production vat system would help your physical integrity. Vat-born are, in my vision of the DE, physically handicaped by the mean of production, which makes Trueborn more "agile".

Sure. But that just means that we have no veteran trueborn either.
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:07

In a certain way, it's true that the entire DE society is meritocratic, and that a vat-born can Archon if he's good enough. So Veteran Kabalites would make sense in some way.

But i don't think Kabals have such things. I think that, when a warrior shows great abilities, he is given command of a small portion of troops, making him a Sybarite. That way, he thinks he has more power (he can control other warriors), and his ambitions are satisfied... for the moment.

I don't think it would make much sense for an Archon to create an elite group of warriors separated from the main chain of command : doing so, the Archon would acknoledge their superiority to others, without giving them any form of authority or responsability. In a society that is all about powers and social rising, those elite warriors would become frustrated and, since they would all be in the same case, would definitly overthrow the archon.

You don't create an elite shock troop with warriors you can't trust. You give them responsabilities and put them in charge of other troops, so that they are too busy avoiding assassinations attempts to plan yours.

Just my 2 cents.

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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:12

@Mppqlmd wrote:
In a certain way, it's true that the entire DE society is meritocratic, and that a vat-born can Archon if he's good enough. So Veteran Kabalites would make sense in some way.

But i don't think Kabals have such things. I think that, when a warrior shows great abilities, he is given command of a small portion of troops, making him a Sybarite. That way, he thinks he has more power (he can control other warriors), and his ambitions are satisfied... for the moment.

I don't think it would make much sense for an Archon to create an elite group of warriors separated from the main chain of command : doing so, the Archon would acknoledge their superiority to others, without giving them any form of authority or responsability. In a society that is all about powers and social rising, those elite warriors would become frustrated and, since they would all be in the same case, would definitly overthrow the archon.

You don't create an elite shock troop with warriors you can't trust. You give them responsabilities and put them in charge of other troops, so that they are too busy avoiding assassinations attempts to plan yours.

Just my 2 cents.

While I admit you have a point, Orks have Nob Squads and Meganob Squads and they are far more fractious and backstabby than even the Dark Eldar.

Furthermore, Bloodbrides are Elite Wyches, in other words exactly what we are talking about only for Kabals.

And let's be honest, it's not like we are swarming with Kabal Infantry options.
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:20

Yep, i thought about Bloodbrides, and they are very similar to orks : they are a society that rewards strength, killiness and violence. It thus makes perfect sense that their "elites" form shock troops, because they are elite killers.
My vision of the Kabal society is that, while the social rising is also present, it's less about "who's the best warrior around", and more about "who's the most cunning/most fearsome/most careful".

That's why i think it's ridiculous that an Archon can destroy a Succubus in CC : the Succubus got there because she was the best in battle. The Archon got there because he is a tactical genius, because he has a very good authority, and because he is verrrrrry skilled at avoiding assassins. Archons shouldn't be warmachines, they should be master tacticians.

I would love kabalites to have an elite version, but GW would have to be careful with what differenciates them from the warriors. They can't just give them more raw stats because "you know, elite stuff". Elite kabalites are not necessarly stronger or more skilled, but they are smarter, more cruel, more vicious... that would make a very interesting, but incredibly difficult, unit to design.


Something that would be interesting would be to give them extra special rules for the special weapons they use :
- "Blind" when they use darklances/heatlances.
- "Sniper" on the blasters
- "Entangle" when they use shredders
- etc.
But then they would completly steal the Trueborns tactical role (which is fine. As a general, i'd rather give the special weapons to the skilled warriors than to the rich kids).

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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:26

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Yep, i thought about Bloodbrides, and they are very similar to orks : they are a society that rewards strength, killiness and violence. It thus makes perfect sense that their "elites" form shock troops, because they are elite killers.
My vision of the Kabal society is that, while the social rising is also present, it's less about "who's the best warrior around", and more about "who's the most cunning/most fearsome/most careful".

That's why i think it's ridiculous that an Archon can destroy a Succubus in CC : the Succubus got there because she was the best in battle. The Archon got there because he is a tactical genius, because he has a very good authority, and because he is verrrrrry skilled at avoiding assassins. Archons shouldn't be warmachines, they should be master tacticians.

I would love kabalites to have an elite version, but GW would have to be careful with what differenciates them from the warriors. They can't just give them more raw stats because "you know, elite stuff". Elite kabalites are not necessarly stronger or more skilled, but they are smarter, more cruel, more vicious... that would make a very interesting, but incredibly difficult, unit to design.

Maybe have them as vanguard options, with special deployment rules ect? It works on two levels.
1) They are cunning at avoiding or misleading the enemy while they get into position.
2) They are the biggest threat to the Archon and are being put in the place where they are most likely to get killed off.
3) The REALLY devious ones have managed to get themselves positions as squad leaders!

Surprise third option! You didn't see that coming did you? Tactical Genius.
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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:28

Quote :
They are the biggest threat to the Archon and are being put in the place where they are most likely to get killed off.

Twisted Evil Now you're talking like a Drukhari.

It could be neat. They could also be an equivalent of Storm Guardians. Focused on CC and Shredders.

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PostSubject: Re: An alternate form of trueborn   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
They are the biggest threat to the Archon and are being put in the place where they are most likely to get killed off.

Twisted Evil Now you're talking like a Drukhari.

It could be neat. They could also be an equivalent of Storm Guardians. Focused on CC and Shredders.

Give them Ghostplate, Shardcarbines/shredders, AND melee weapons and they can be a move-shoot-assault unit that specializes in taking out light infantry.

Retool Wyches with some AP and have them dueling with elites who use power weapons ect (maybe give them rending?).

That gives us a good hordebreaker (elite Kabalites with short range heavy fire followed by melee), a medium/heavy infantry slaughterer (Incubi), and a unit that is great against enemy cc infantry (Wyches, who let's be honest SHOULD specialize in taking on other melee stuff because that is literally all they do for their entire lives which are measured in centuries/millennia)
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