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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 03 2017, 19:38

There are three levels to this discussion:
1. are poison weapons good in a vacuum?
2. are kabalites/x unit with poison weapons good in a vacuum?
3. are armies that field those units good in the game?

None follow directly from the previous order. But since there is no choice for our basic troops in this army (unless you go Ynnari, in which case you may want cheap DE units from what I've seen), only questions 2 and 3 seem relevant even though question 1 is the easiest to debate and analyze.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 03 2017, 19:45

@Logan Frost wrote:
OK, new conversation seed:
Would a guardsman be worth 7pts if he had better BS, better WS, a bunch of special rules, but no grenades?
If yes splinter rifles could be considered lasgun equivalents in price but exponentially better.
Splinter rifles used to be S4 if I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago.
In that optic splinter rifles could be considered a very good weapon.
Are we considering the new ruleset in it's totality or are we biased by past editions?

Very interesting question. To give some feelings for the numbers I made a small spreadsheet to compare BS4 Guardsmen, BS3 Guardsmen and Kabalite Warriors: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVYlXklFKrDU8QqePuT2XX79tN16Vi6oBxVsdKWtVl4/edit#gid=0

Note that against T3, Lasguns will be 50% more effective, whereas they will be 50% less effective against T6 and above. Against T4 and T5, the Splinter Rifle will be around 14% more cost effective, but given all other factors in the game I think those 14% are negligible. It is also visible that BS3 for 7pts is a noticable downgrade.

This doesn't consider special rules, but I doubt these would make up the cost. So at least mathematically, the Kabalite Warrior is very much the anti-Guardsmen. They share similar effectiveness in a vakuum while having completely polar weaknesses. And what we also shouldn't forget is that against vehicles a Splinter Rifles is equivalent to a Lasgun as well.

But I don't consider Lasguns a good weapon to begin with. The gold standard is the Bolter and many factions have an even fancier version of it. Splinter Rifles? I'd call them a "sidegrade" in the best case. I'd love

Going back to your question: No, BS3 on a Guardsmen for 7pths would not be worth it. Not to mention that quantity is a quality of its own.


Edit: I really like that Splinter weapons work differently, but a buff really is not unreasonable. Something like Mortal wounds on a 6+ or 2 points of damage on wound rolls of 5+. Idk, just anything.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 03 2017, 20:05

Dont forget some vehicles are T5.

The problem with DE vs others like Guardsman and Cultist, we will always take a vehicle, b.c we cost more and we take vehicles the points IMO are not equal.


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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 08:09


Then it can easily be compared to a 6 point veteran:
For 1 point we get +1 ws and power from pain, and good transportation, but less special weapons.
Which means: for shooting we are a tiny bit worse, but we are able to fight a lot better as well.
We are the faction that is supposed to fight when the enemy shoots and shoot when the enemy fights. kabalites are despite only 1 attack a mixed unit (we hit on 2+ most of the game)

So no I do not think our kabalites are overpriced. I do think we lack acces to special weapons (s4-6) which we can bring in with a large number of shots.

If we could have a unit worth around 8 points with s4 shots I think we would see a mixture of the two. The problem is not our poinson which I think is actually reasonably priced. The problem is that we only have poison which means we have to use it for suboptimal targets since we have weapons that are better (dark lances/dissies) against the targets where poison shines (high toughness units nearly always have multiple wounds and a reasonably/good save).
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 12:54

Quote :
The problem is that we only have poison which means we have to use it for suboptimal targets since we have weapons that are better (dark lances/dissies) against the targets where poison shines (high toughness units nearly always have multiple wounds and a reasonably/good save).

This is something i agree with. Most of the targets you would want to kill with splinter weaponry can also be dealt with with poison (some exceptions, like Lychguards for example).
Combine that with the fact that poison sucks against low-tier infantry, and we got too many options to kill the big things, and not enough options to kill the small things.

However, if Wyches/grotesques/hellions were a tadd more viable, the solution would be clear : shoot the strong, and assault the meek. Which, from a pirate point of view, makes perfect sense.

I have to say i miss the time when our Kabalites could make 3 S4 attacks each. Having Rage and Furious Charge in the PfP chart was a lot better than the current one.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:05

People always want more more more...give all my troops lascannons because I didn't kill enough stuff blah blah blah

Poison is fine...in fact I want more poison! I want poison on my wyches for a start.

The Splinter Rifle in particular, which really should be compared with a Lasgun, is good.

vs. T2 it suffers
vs. T3 it is equal to the lasgun
vs. T4+ is is better than the lasgun
vs. The vast majority of Vehicles it is equal to the lasgun

You have to be a Guard Character most of the time to get a Bolter/Bolt Pistol. Don't you think Guard players would have preferred that all their troops had Bolters?
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:13

When we recieve some force multiplier allowing kabalites to shoot twice per turn (Splinter racks where are you ?), i'd be satisfied with the fact that splinter rifles are as efficient as lasguns Smile

I think the Splinter Rife should be compared to the standard infantry gun in 40k : the bolter. Most of infantry guns are bolter equivalents (t'au, tyrannids, orks, necrons, eldars). And the SR is actually a decent alternative to the bolter.

Honestly, when we get splinter racks and maybe some kind of force multiplying for the Lhamean/Archon, splinter weaponry is going to be top notch.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:18

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
People always want more more more...give all my troops lascannons because I didn't kill enough stuff blah blah blah

Poison is fine...in fact I want more poison!  I want poison on my wyches for a start.

The Splinter Rifle in particular, which really should be compared with a Lasgun, is good.

vs. T2 it suffers
vs. T3 it is equal to the lasgun
vs. T4+ is is better than the lasgun
vs. The vast majority of Vehicles it is equal to the lasgun

You have to be a Guard Character most of the time to get a Bolter/Bolt Pistol.  Don't you think Guard players would have preferred that all their troops had Bolters?

Honestly, I think that the main problem with poison is that we lack other viable anti-infantry options. Guard have lasguns, sure, but they also have heavy bolters, multilasers, mortars, punisher cannons, flamers... the list goes on. We have poison and disintegrators. Don't get me wrong disintegrators are great, but they are wasted against light infantry.

Guard also get grenades, a little perk that is often overlooked but really adds to their ability to use their troops in multiple tactical situations.

Poison is great, but it needs to be supplemented with some dedicated light infantry killing power which is currently a gaping hole in our arsenal.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:25

If shredder was good, this wouldn't even be a problem.
Or if Wyches/grotesques/hellions were good.
If we had any reliable AI force, really Smile

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:30

@Mppqlmd wrote:
If shredder was good, this wouldn't even be a problem.
Or if Wyches/grotesques/hellions were good.
If we had any reliable AI force, really Smile

Exactly. Poison is only getting complaints because it's virtually our only workable option, and because it is being put in the position of having to shoulder the vast majority of our anti-infantry work it comes up short because it ISN'T a universal weapon, it merely has to do the job of one.

Give us good alternatives and poison will be considered a good infantry weapon once again.

And give us grenades. Seriously, why do we not have grenades?!?
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:41

Is the Shredder that bad? S6 is odd because it is almost too high. It means it is pretty good at taking out T5 bikes etc

But it is not meant for that...so it would have been better had it been auto hit, or at least assault 3 and down to S5. That would give it higher S than a standard flamer for less shots with it. That I could handle.

It is only 8 points though right? Half the price of the blaster. Surely even now there is a place for it?
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:45

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Is the Shredder that bad?
Check the maths that are included in the "letter to GW" ? The Shredder is worse (point for point) worse than a Splinter Rifle against every single non-vehicle target.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:55

@Dark Elf Dave On Lasguns
Nobody argues that Splinter Rifles are worse than Lasguns, which is not surprising as Lasguns are not good weapons. Lasguns are attractive because the models carrying them are dirt cheap.

@Dark Elf Dave On Shredders
A shredder costs more than an additional Kabalite and does not bring an additional body. Worse than that, you can only shoot at rapid fire range where 2 Kabalites will have 4 shots in total. The most optimal target for Shredders are GEQ and even in that case 2 Kabalites are more effective.


I agree with most that Splinter weapons don't need to excel against T3 and I wish we had more options in terms of AI. Especially Wyches and Grotesques would be the most logical units to take as GEQ counters.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 13:56

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Is the Shredder that bad?  S6 is odd because it is almost too high.  It means it is pretty good at taking out T5 bikes etc

But it is not meant for that...so it would have been better had it been auto hit, or at least assault 3 and down to S5.  That would give it higher S than a standard flamer for less shots with it.  That I could handle.

It is only 8 points though right?  Half the price of the blaster.  Surely even now there is a place for it?

Okay, quick rundown on why the Shredder is bad because at first I thought as you did.

First thing is that it's range 12". This means that using it requires a lot of confidence that you will render your enemy combat ineffective, because if not you ARE going to get shot and charged next turn.

So it needs to be very good at its job. Looking at it, it has a random number of shots. d3 means that on average, you are getting two shots from it and on a bad day you are getting half that.

It does not auto hit, so in practice you are getting an average of about 1 and a third hits with it.

Strength 6 rerolling failed wounds means that you are very likely to wound. This is good.

However, it costs the same as adding an extra warrior to the mix and change beyond that, which means it needs to add >100% increase in firepower (since it doesn't add the benefits of extra bodies, I would say it's getting close to worth it if it adds, on average, around +150% extra firepower.)

So the splinter rifle at the same range is getting 2 shots (same number of shots on average), and is obviously hitting the same amount.
Splinter rifles wound 50% of the time. Shredders wound, depending on target, somewhere in the realm of 88-98% of the time.

This means that the shredder is adding, on average, <+100% firepower. A second warrior is cheaper, adds exactly +100% firepower, and has all the extra benefits of another warm body in the squad.

Factor in the range difference on top of that and it becomes pretty clear why the shredder is considered a bad investment. At 3 points, it would be far more viable. at 2 points it would be downright popular. At 8 points it's a joke.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 14:09

I've shown that it should be 2pt many times also. IDK why its 8 freaking points.......... a Freaking Storm Bolter is 2pts.


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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 14:46

I see what you guys are saying...I would have to agree. It is like the Heat Lance, fair enough if i have to wound on 5+ but 25 points? If our special weapons are decent but with slight draw backs then we can deal with that, but are they literally all way overpriced?
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 15:16

That's pretty much the conclusion that we came to in our letter. If it's not a dark lance or disintegrator, the chances are that it's not worth taking.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 15:27

I'm not disagreeing.
However, it seems to me that Blasters are appropriately costed. I wish they were a static 2 damage, but that should average out.

Am I wrong on Blasters?
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 17:58

I mean, I would disagree with the notion that blasters are worth their points. I'm sure someone would be able to lay out a desirable scenario for them, but for 5 points more you get a dark lance with twice the range and damage. Seems like a no brainer
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 18:08

Blasters are over costed, they need to be 8pts.....

Yes they have 18" BUT thats b.c they are D3 over D6. If they were D6 then 15pts be fine.

A melta gun is only 2pts more, you get less range but its D6 damage and has Melta rule.

I'd rather have a melta over Blaster anyday.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 18:10

Except one is an assault weapon and one is a heavy.
There's a drawback to heavy being carried by models you intend to remain very mobile.
Assuming a model had a choice between carrying a Blaster or 5 points more for a Dark Lance, I'd be really considering pros and cons almost evenly. Which means to me they're fairly well priced.
I don't put a DL on Trueborn. I only put them on Scourges when I know for sure I'm dropping them and staying put. Although the penalty is far less severe in 8th than 7th, I absolutely disagree that it's a no brainer.
If I could choose a Blaster, Disintigrator, or Lance for my Ravager or Raider then I would easily agree that we'd never choose it.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 19:36

A melter isn't a heavy weapon. I think the Blaster is fine. Just 3-5 points too expensive
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 19:53

So versus a moving dark lance, very simple math says that blasters hit 33% more often while dark lances do 75% more damage while also costing 33% more. As it turns out, 1/2*3.5/20=3.5/40=7/80 and 2/3*2/15 = 1/5*4/3*1/3=(64/9)/80=7/80+(1/9)/80 so if you are absolutely certain the shooters are going to be moving and within 18 inches every turn then the Blaster is very slightly better value for your points. In the letter they were called equal which is not far from the truth since the difference is something like 1-2%. Can check stuff like this with Splata's calc, I'm traveling so I have to do it in my head but you don't.

Note that versus a dark lance not moving they clearly lose.

Anyway it seens to me like the more relevant question is who can take what. The Blaster is certainly not worthless and it is the only option for some dudes.

Eta: because the difference is so small, missing just 1 turn of shooting due to the short range of Blaster will of course flip it significantly in favor of moving dark lance in points efficiency. Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 21:58

@Lord Johan
The math has been done before (excessively) and imo it really comes down to how many wounds the target has. Against MEQ or a Primaris, a Blaster is more effective than a moving DL as the higher damage output becomes irrelevant. A Blaster is a good anti heavy infantry weapon, while a Dark Lance reigns supreme in AT.

I fully agree that the question isn't whether to take a Blaster or a DL. Often you can only take one or the other. And imo, if you want to go full on anti heavy infantry you are best off by buying a Voidraven.


Despite everything I've said so far I don't mind the weaknesses of Splinter Fire if we had other wargear to make up for it.
Shredders: Anti horde.
Blaster: Anti MC/heavy infantry.

Imagine Shredders were S6 flamers and every Kabalite Warrior could take 2x special weapons. It would mitigate a lot of problems, imo.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 04 2017, 22:37

I contest the idea that if the Shredder was good, our infantry problems would be solved.

Let's, for a moment, assume the absolute best case scenario here. A shredder is 5pts, d6 autohits, and otherwise remains the same. Put it on a five man Kab squad and toss them against guardsmen.
The Shredder will kill 2.26 Guardsmen, and the Rifles, within rapid fire, will take out another 1.78. So it averages out to be almost exactly 4 Guardsmen per squad, which means it'll take eight squads of Kabs in the above setup to wipe a unit of Conscripts. You're still spending 320 points to kill a 90 point unit of fodder. Even with this, this hypothetical scenario occurs in a fantasy land where the Kabs have footslogged it.
So let's factor in transports. A Venom (Dual rifle) with said squad inside it will raise the kill count per squad to 6.26. This means that it'll take five squads to wipe out the unit of Conscripts. Even if the Venom falls in cost to a meager 50 points (Cheaper than in 7th), it'll take 450 points to wipe that 90 point squad.

The Raider will hold two squads each, and assuming that Splinter Racks grant the same bonus as in 7th (we're not going to be firing the DL into the Guardsmen for hopefully obvious reasons), it'll take seven squads of Kabs to take out the Conscripts. Let's assume that these Raiders, kitted out, cost only 100 points each. You'll need four of them, which brings the cost up to a whopping 680 points to kill a 90 point unit.

The point is, looking at it from both a realistic and fantastical perspective, it still takes a astronomical point investment to destroy massed T3, and even factoring in best-best-case scenarios, our ability to deal with them remains laughably insufficient.

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