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 On poison e splinter weapons.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 03:29

@FuelDrop wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@ncshooter426 wrote:
Strength should be thought of more as combat prowess than the "do you even lift bro?" measurement. Sure, a marine is stronger than a a normal human, before even factoring power armor. Unfortunately, the scale goes from 3 to 4. That same S3->S4 scale says a guardsman in paper armor has the same strength as a power armored Sister. Power amplified *anything* is going to beat out unpowered in terms of human physique. So we know our scale just doesn't work, before even bringing Xenos into it. Since they won't change the scale, we have to change how we perceive the scale.

So, if we ditch the mentality of strength = muscle and treat it more as combat prowess, you can make the equation of Wych to Marine. They should be as deadly hand to hand as a beefed up mutant, but the draw back of course if the lack of mass+armor (ie: lower toughness). That, imho, is a fair trade off - as long as the points reflect it Smile

Combat prowess is defined by WS

So give us a special rule that makes our weapon skill work for more than connecting.
"On a 6+ to hit, attacks from this unit automatically wound at AP -2"

Most people here agree on that. We all think wychs should be more killy. We just disagree that S4 is the way to do it.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 11:33

On the Raider vs Venom topic, i agree that venoms need improvement.

I think Raiders should resolve around enhancing the unit inside, while Venoms should be taken for the vehicle itself.

Boosting the Splinter Cannon is the only thing the Venom needs to become viable. On the other hand, the Raider relies on things like Splinter Racks to be relevant.

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ncshooter426
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 17:15

@dumpeal wrote:
@ncshooter426 wrote:
Strength should be thought of more as combat prowess than the "do you even lift bro?" measurement. Sure, a marine is stronger than a a normal human, before even factoring power armor. Unfortunately, the scale goes from 3 to 4. That same S3->S4 scale says a guardsman in paper armor has the same strength as a power armored Sister. Power amplified *anything* is going to beat out unpowered in terms of human physique. So we know our scale just doesn't work, before even bringing Xenos into it. Since they won't change the scale, we have to change how we perceive the scale.

So, if we ditch the mentality of strength = muscle and treat it more as combat prowess, you can make the equation of Wych to Marine. They should be as deadly hand to hand as a beefed up mutant, but the draw back of course if the lack of mass+armor (ie: lower toughness). That, imho, is a fair trade off - as long as the points reflect it Smile

Combat prowess is defined by WS


No, WS just defines accuracy hand to hand. Precision without accompanying power isn't useful - chopsticking a fly out of the air is only dangerous to the fly Wink Since many damage tables are based on user strength rather than the weapon, that creates a problem.

I don't mind if something is S3 as long as its number of attacks+weapon modifiers are what actually matter in the roles. Wyches need weapons and abilities that reflect both lightning speed and pointy stabby bits.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 17:24

Quote :
No, WS just defines accuracy hand to hand. Precision without accompanying power isn't useful - chopsticking a fly out of the air is only dangerous to the fly Wink Since many damage tables are based on user strength rather than the weapon, that creates a problem.

No, combat prowess is defined by WS.

Having S3 is not a big deal in 8th edition (that's kinda why Conscripts were top meta), Wyches do not need more than S3. Wounding on 5+/6+ is okay, as long as you have enough attacks (that's why our best Index unit was RWF).

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 17:30

You know what i just thought of about our poison guns.


With Splinter Cannon being 1/2 the shots, and everything can hurt everything now. We cant kill as much of them but they can kill more of us, making it harder to get Rapid fire.

DE never used to be hurt by S3 before, so we didnt care if we got close to Hordes to actually use our Rapid fire weapons. but that just isnt possible now.

DE got hit not once or twice, but 3x against hordes.


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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 17:31

Well now we can wound a vehicle on 6+ with Splinter weaponry. But that's not something you'd want to do anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 17:39

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Well now we can wound a vehicle on 6+ with Splinter weaponry. But that's not something you'd want to do anyway.

Use wound on Vehicles 6's in a game that is horded based where us being T5 and them being S3 wounds us on a 5+. When they have 100+ models and also MCs or Vehicles. While we lose 1/2 of our poison shots due to that weakness and SC's.

Its a sad day for DE then, and its why i only use Ravagers, Flyers and no troops lol.

Hopefully the codex changed this Smile

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ncshooter426
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 18:59

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
No, WS just defines accuracy hand to hand. Precision without accompanying power isn't useful - chopsticking a fly out of the air is only dangerous to the fly Wink Since many damage tables are based on user strength rather than the weapon, that creates a problem.

No, combat prowess is defined by WS.

Having S3 is not a big deal in 8th edition (that's kinda why Conscripts were top meta), Wyches do not need more than S3. Wounding on 5+/6+ is okay, as long as you have enough attacks (that's why our best Index unit was RWF).


At it's core, it isn't. It's an accuracy rating - until it's paired with a strength value (from any source) it has no meaning. Combat prowess is the entire package - How often you hit, and how hard you hit. Just like ranged effectiveness is the combo of hits+damage.

You either alter base S value, or augment it. Since GW's scale doesn't allow altering core values well, you do it through weapons. So, the total damage either comes from the modified S of the weapon, or from procs. Weapon/proc is the most efficient way to modify it by a large margin. So sure, you don't have to make wyches S4 - they need to be the *equivalent* after modifiers of >4 or otherwise make up for it through procs.

Conscripts were a problem due to blob having no real answer from firepower standpoint, absurd points rating, and moral shenanigans.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sat Jan 27 2018, 20:20

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Conscripts were a problem due to blob having no real answer from firepower standpoint, absurd points rating, and moral shenanigans

They always had the last 2. The first is just a consequence of the removal of blasts.

The real thing that changed, for conscript, is the fact that now, lasguns can kill anything. That's why they became OP.

That's also why Wyches can be effective without having altered strength Wink

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sun Jan 28 2018, 04:40

With that said I'd much prefer our volume to come from number of attacks on a limited number of troops, than a limit number of attacks on a lot of models (elite vs horde)

I would much prefer to see us dish out a lot of damage and not be resilient to damage as it goes with our glass cannon ideal, and if you don't want the glass cannon approach, the n grab your grotesques and go to town! They should be able to take the punishment and then dish it right back at you.

And let their good game design come through as we have endless discussions on what is the better approach!
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sun Jan 28 2018, 10:25

We are halfway through a horde and an elite army.

CW are completly elite, but we are using Vat-breeding, and we have soooo much low-quality population to throw in raids...

Wyches, Hellions, Wracks should almost be as cheap as kabalites, because they are expendables in the DE society.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sun Jan 28 2018, 12:27

For me, the definition of an elite army are hands down Harlequinns. Their troops already equal our elite units. Instead of a situational 4++, they have a straight invul save, every model has its own unique set of wargear and they cost much more a model.

Even CWE aren't as elite as Quinns are, but certainly more than us.

The cleanest description of our army would/should be: Dies like a guard, but with elite grade firepower. And some special rules on top.
If you look at a Ravager, his statline is not too unsimilar to that of a Guard tank. But we can shoot on the move, have more mounted weapons and have a 5++. And of course there is BS3.

The rest is done with making the according pricing.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Sun Jan 28 2018, 18:01

The most accurate definition of what the DE army i have ever read (back in 6th edition) was :
"Orks with T3 and BS3+".

Pretty accurate. A horde (with access to some elite stuff, like every horde), with a good damage output (for a horde), but a very poor resilience.

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