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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 18:58

I never said to change the model No

Just change the stats of the current splinter rifle to the current shardcarbine. You can change the name, or don't. It doesn't matter to me.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:02

Quote :
But they want it to be Equal to the Bolter (IMO it seems this way) so it will always be 24" Rapid 1. As a base on Kabals
Indeed. It's not a universal rule (see orks for example), but GW loves to give RF weapons to basic infantry. Again, no real reason for them to change this. It would tamper with... everything ? The history of the faction, the infos on every wiki, the habits of the players, all to create a small buff that could very well come from somewhere else (a Lhamaen aura to reroll poison comes to mind. Or, like stated earlier, Splinter Racks).

Quote :

If we get new kits due to weapon change, it better be Reavers and we get the option to take a weapon per bike!
Unlikely... but much more needed, indeed.



+, we don't have many weapons in our arsenal to begin with... why diminish that amount ? Many buffs/changes/reworks for poison have been imagined around here... i'd rather see Splinter rifles get a small buff in AI (Count Adhemar's solution is elegant), and keep the Scourges, Sslyths (and possibly Trueborns, as they have access to carbines in lore) with a small advantage over Kabalites.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:03

I typed that and enter it at the same time, no "modify" option came up.

Its an icon weapon for DE at this point, it wont change names at all, and its know how it works, so Vehicle upgrades or Command points will be the only way it will be buffed sadly.

And Yes i was wish listing on the Reavers Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:06

Yes, you COULD call them shardcarbines Wink If you don't want to / there is a reason not to it doesn't change my point. Which seems to be mostly ignored. Sorry.

Seriously, if splinter rifles had the stats of shardcarbines, what do you think it would mean for warriors? Good things IMO

Asuryani already have a non-boltgun-like basic weapon. And they're also Aeldari. Not a stretch to see Drukhari with something different as well.

If you really want to keep shardcarbines a different thing, then fine change them as well. They're just too perfect as a thematic and useful basic Drukhari weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:07

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Its an icon weapon for DE at this point, it wont change names at all, and its know how it works, so Vehicle upgrades or Command points will be the only way it will be buffed sadly.
And honestly, it may be enough...
Imagine this scenario : your 200pts squad (including in a raider with DL) can pop 48 shots a turn with the Racks, and if you pay 1 CP, say, you reroll to wound for this turn ? That's a nice little blender you got there. Not necessarly broken, but nothing to scoff at (just for info, that's 24 wounds).

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:09

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Its an icon weapon for DE at this point, it wont change names at all, and its know how it works, so Vehicle upgrades or Command points will be the only way it will be buffed sadly.
And honestly, it may be enough...
Imagine this scenario : your 200pts squad (including in a raider with DL) can pop 50 shots a turn with the Racks, and if you pay 1 CP, say, you reroll to wound for this turn ? That's a nice little blender you got there. Not necessarly broken, but nothing to scoff at.

Right, with how the Stratagems and CP/Chapter Tactics are going it seems this is a highly possibility to happen for us.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:11

You can't include stratagems in the cost of a warrior either. No other army is doing that kind of thing. Tempestus can attack again on 6's now. They didn't get a price bump... For example.

Though yes. that sounds blender-y. Doesn't fix anything though.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:12

No, but if we get vehicle upgrades back etc.. also we could just get "all poison weapons are dbl shots" if you take XYZ units.

We will have to wait and see.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:17

@RegoCrux wrote:
You can't include stratagems in the cost of a warrior either. No other army is doing that kind of thing. Tempestus can attack again on 6's now. They didn't get a price bump... For example.

Though yes. that sounds blender-y. Doesn't fix anything though.

Yes, you can. Thinking in a void-bubble gets you nowhere in this game. If warriors stay the same, but receive a stratagem that buffs their damage output by 50%, they are MASSIVELY improved. Which then means that they don't need any other change.
There are many more ways to buff a unit than to change its statline. Not everything has to occur on the datasheet... so, to answer your point, it would fix everything.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:25

It isn't in a void. It's about adding to both sides of the equation. Splinter rifles (the troops carryinng them) are inferior when compared to others without stratagems or doctrines on either side. Adding stratagems or doctrines to Drukhari only balances that one part of the equation, it doesn't do anything to change the inherent inferiority.

What happens when that stratagem isn't in play? Then it's still inferior. The only thing a stratagem fixes is the stratagem. Which means a pigeon-holed army build that must use it or suck. It is balance issues waiting to happen.

This is where paying for privilege gets you.


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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:28

Fun thought: Poison wounding on 3+ or even 2+ for infantry, 4+ for other non-vehicles, 6's for vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 19:33

@FuelDrop wrote:
Fun thought: Poison wounding on 3+ or even 2+ for infantry, 4+ for other non-vehicles, 6's for vehicles.

That could be one of our "Chapter Tactics" we will have to wait and see Razz

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 01:57

@FuelDrop wrote:
Fun thought: Poison wounding on 3+ or even 2+ for infantry, 4+ for other non-vehicles, 6's for vehicles.

Something like this I would not mind. I think a 3+ would be enough.

Quote :

Imagine this scenario : your 200pts squad (including in a raider with DL) can pop 48 shots a turn with the Racks, and if you pay 1 CP, say, you reroll to wound for this turn ? That's a nice little blender you got there. Not necessarly broken, but nothing to scoff at (just for info, that's 24 wounds).

A horrible solution. It means we pay slightly over double points for double the wounds at double the thoughness, a ward save, double the speed, double the damage with splinter weapons and, an extra gun.
It would just make the option of not going in a raider useless. Then you might as well not have the kabalites as a datasheet anymore but just make a datasheet of kabalites in a raider.
The raider right now is quite nice and an upgrade for 40 points or so for splinter racks seems fine to me.
But it would not fix the problem that kabalites on their own are not really good enough. We are already at a disadvantage when not mounted on vehicles. You just made the difference even bigger. You also just made venoms as a transport for kabalites absolete, since they do not have splinter racks. Thus you just deleted 2 other options just to make kabalites better.

The major problem comes that they cannot make kabalites cheaper without the community shouting kabalites are OP. Veterans are 6 points each, have a lower move, ws and s3 shots.
But right now we think a boat with kabalites is roughly worth it, they might be a bit expensive, but not much. But just doubling their shots inside a vehicle just makes the other options worse by comparison.
The problem is that we have few good options against infantry, solve that. I do agree that some good stratagems would go a long way, but unless we also get some extra command points it won't be able to carry us.



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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 02:38

I'm all for warriors costing a little bit more under certain circumstances. If splinter rifles become like shardcarbines are now I'd think 8, maaaayybe 9 pts if PfP is improved for them, would be reasonable. Then some reductions on some of the overcosted weapon upgrades (splinter cannon.........)
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 05:22

There is no way the Splinter Rifle is going to become an assault weapon...so while it is a fun idea I think people are wasting their time.

The best possible outcome for Kabs is the return of Splinter Racks.

The argument that Splinter Racks make the Venom obsolete is absurd! Who on earth is running a 5 Kab Splinter Rifle squad around in a Venom??? Get your rifles on the Raider get your blasters on the Venom...seriously. People are already saying the option of Kabs foot slogging is simply NOT AN OPTION anyway.

Buff the Raider job done man...straight up.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 05:50

Add to that, Venoms might gain a boost, or melee units might also gain a boost and we want a Venom for that extra movement to get them there faster.

Just because a Raider will buff splinter weapons doesnt mean other things wont get buff too.

This is all also wish listing anyways, why are people getting so heated lol.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 05:57

Splinter racks on the raider will give us a big boost, but I think a point reduction on splinter cannons will give venoms enough of a boost to stay competitive too.

I also hope they give the archon a decent enough aura that we may consider dropping some warriors on the table turn 1 without a transport, rerolling 1 to wound, so setting up a warrior squad with a splinter cannon on a point won't be a waste.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 07:01

@Britishgrotesque wrote:
Splinter racks on the raider will give us a big boost, but I think a point reduction on splinter cannons will give venoms enough of a boost to stay competitive too.

I don't think a points drop will do it alone. When a twin assault cannon is only 5 points more than 2 splinter cannons but is better in pretty much every way, there's a definite issue with points but it's the range that really kills it for me. It really needs to go back to being assault 6 for about 10 points.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 07:43

I am probably in the minority here but I actually like the short range of the splinter cannon. Right now it is overpriced, but I like the fact that most of our damage except for lances is all reasonably short ranged. It means we get good use out of our speed and helps the on the edge feel of the dark eldar.
The splinter cannon clearly needs something, but I would rather see it get some ap (as well as a possible price reduction). It also means that it will actually be better at killing infantry instead of just being safer.


Quote :
The argument that Splinter Racks make the Venom obsolete is absurd! Who on earth is running a 5 Kab Splinter Rifle squad around in a Venom??? Get your rifles on the Raider get your blasters on the Venom...seriously. People are already saying the option of Kabs foot slogging is simply NOT AN OPTION anyway.
Which I think is not good. You are now stopping 3 options, just because points are in the wrong place. I am not saying all is right the way it is now. But right now it seems to me your major focus is on improving something that is already mostly working, to fix a problem we have as the army as a whole (no good option to deal with infantry).
Rifles in a venom is bad, foot slogging is bad, wyches are bad and blasters in a raider will also be bad if raiders get poison racks standard of very cheap. All just to get cheap rifles in a raider and more ravagers. While in some cases some options cannot be priced correctly since just spamming is sometimes better then different options. I think all those options can be just as viable in the same codex if the points of all the units are done correctly.

I sometimes have the idea that people here just want to have one good option. I would rather have 4 ok options. Will that mean we will have a harder time in tournaments, yes. But it will also mean we can have 4 different units and still win games instead of 1 option where we nearly always win and 3 options where we nearly always lose.

So I say do something to improve our regular troops. Do I like poison racks on raiders (yes) and I hope they will be there and give a good bonus. But I also hope that they will be expensive enough that I must make a though choice wether to take them or not.

Give wyches a special rule that for each point their ws is lower then the enemy they get an extra attack, that will also give us something to deal with hordes, and it will suddenly make wyches much more viable again as well.

Giving the splinter rifles poison 3+ vs infantry makes kabalites better, independent on wether they are in a raider/ venom/ on foot/ or webway portal. Does this exclude poison racks, no it does not. But it does mean that kabalites in a raider are not suddenly the only viable option.

A lot of people here claim that splinter racks on the raider will give us a big boost, but this is only the case if those splinter racks are actually to cheap. Otherwise it will give a choice between a more agressive playstyle (more shots, but less models) and a more horde/objective based one (more models but slightly less shots). All that being said, my expectation is that the splinter racks will be a stratagem.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 07:51

@|Meavar wrote:
I am probably in the minority here but I actually like the short range of the splinter cannon. Right now it is overpriced, but I like the fact that most of our damage except for lances is all reasonably short ranged. It means we get good use out of our speed and helps the on the edge feel of the dark eldar.

Getting into close range with the enemy would be a decent tactic if we had the tools to deal them a killing blow when we do. Sadly, we don't have those tools so all that happens is that we get up close and personal, do some mediocre damage and then find ourselves in rapid fire/charge range of the enemy who are more than capable of dealing killing blows to our fragile little candy asses.

It's the same old problem of GW doubling down on the glass and forgetting the cannon.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 08:14

@|Meavar wrote:

A horrible solution. It means we pay slightly over double points for double the wounds at double the thoughness, a ward save, double the speed, double the damage with splinter weapons and, an extra gun.
It would just make the option of not going in a raider useless. Then you might as well not have the kabalites as a datasheet anymore but just make a datasheet of kabalites in a raider.
The raider right now is quite nice and an upgrade for 40 points or so for splinter racks seems fine to me.


So, when you read the Imperial Guard codex and found the Leman Russ buff, you thought "Horrible solution : now every other tank is useless" ?

They HAVE to specialize transports. Making the Raider a gunboat with splinter racks doubling the shots of everyone, and making the Venom the faster boat (maybe even allowing the disembark after movement) would make our unit panel interesting.

Refusing to consider buffing (and changing, and specializing) a unit because it makes other units look bad in comparison is something i cannot understand.

Quote :

This is where paying for privilege gets you.

Now here is an example of a unit that was consider kinda lackluster before codex, and who is now loved and played because of external reasons and new synergy : Imperial Guard Veterans. The simple fact that Mordian Company Commander can give them the Sniper special rule shifted those guys from "okayish" to "really good".
This shows that thinking in a vacuum is useless. Kabalites don't have to change to become excellent. Instead, it's a lot smarter to give them units to interract with in order to boost their efficiency : Archons, Lhaemeans, Raiders, all those units could, and should, have synergy with the Kabalites.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 08:24

Poison 3+ Vs. infantry would be great...will it happen? Very doubtful which is why I don't give it much thought...I would be wasting my time. I just don't think that poison will change from 4+ at least in the base rules.

The argument that suggests improving one transport will make the other options worse doesn't make any sense at all. We wouldn't be having this conversation if they hadn't removed the orignal wargear in the first place. Bringing them back just sets us back to a place we are far more used to...Splinter Racks were not expensive before and nobody complained about them.

The Raider is different to the Venom in so many ways...I am not sure the two should be directly compared. Splinter Racks on the Raider does not make the Venom any worse...unless you intend to use it the same way...which I would suggest you shouldn't.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 08:28

@|Meavar wrote:
But right now it seems to me your major focus is on improving something that is already mostly working, to fix a problem we have as the army as a whole (no good option to deal with infantry).
 

Kabals by the nature is Anti-Infantry unit (including Elite Infantry), Poison, not effective against tanks, can take shredders, mass shooting, etc..

The Problem is our best AI is melee (and it should be), in the Form of Beasts and Coven, but as of right now they are to hard/costly to play, and on top of that Beasts are not very survivable, if they are your Key AI, and the other player is a Horde army, they will just kill the Beasts.

We need Range AI, and we need it to be good, thus Kabals are that purpose.

Remember, we DONT have Psychic to help, we dont have Doom, Guide, Smite, etc... We are suppose to make that up with having weapons that can Hurt everything a Bit better, HENCE the Poison and Lances.

Sadly in 8th Poison isnt worth a crap, before it was ok, but now its almost pointless, giving that its less effective and the Splinter cannon got nerf, along with shredders (only D3 when before we could get 3+) it makes Range AI almost gone.


Look at SOB, they have equal units for Horde and Tank in both Via Shooting and Melee. (I only mention SOB b.c they are design like DE, Fast and Glass cannon, they basically play just like DE in everyway, extremely fun 2nd army for DE lovers)

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 08:29

They HAVE to specialize transports. Making the Raider a gunboat with splinter racks doubling the shots of everyone, and making the Venom the faster boat (maybe even allowing the disembark after movement) would make our unit panel interesting. wrote:

This would be fantastic...the idea of Incubi assaulting direct from the Venom is where it needs to be at!
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Wed Oct 11 2017, 08:32

You're right. Splinter racks used to be a thing (and cost 15pts...) and it has to come back.

Honestly it's not the Raider's fault if they Venom gets overlooked. It's only because the 8th edition Venom is trash. Bad overpriced guns make for a bad overpriced vehicle.

The difference between the 2 vehicles has always been that the Raider is more focused on transporting, and the Venom is more focused on shooting. So it makes perfect sense for the Raider to have a unit buffer than doubles the efficiency of Kabalites, as long as the Venom is able to field powerful Splinter Cannons... which is NOT the case.

So the Raider has to gain extra utility through vehicle upgrades (sails, racks, trophies), and the Venom has to know a overhaul of his weapon. After that, both will be viable and competitive.

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