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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 01:18

Honestly? without factoring in transports or external force multipliers, Guardians > Kabalites. The ability to advance and shoot without penalty gives Guardians a deceptively large threat range, and their guns are very good when taken en mass. While the loss of the grav platform turning whatever you slap into it into an assault weapon hurts (and I suspect will be remedied in the codex), the humble Shuriken Cannon is a fantastic weapon in this edition. In addition, the sheer variety of weapons in the Guardians' arsenal makes a mockery of the Kabalites. Oh, and Guardians get grenades.

Kabalites are not good boots on the ground this edition. They're not bad, exactly, but they bring very little to the table in and of themselves. No grenades, no special tricks, no large and varied arsenal. Poison and a bit of darklight is all they have.

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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 03:55

Splinter racks don't fix anything other than splinter racks. They great! I want them! Weapons on troops are still the same. The re-rolls they used to mean aren't any different from the HQ auras of most armies. Getting that aura through a vehicle upgrade would be cool, but the other armies don't pay a premium on their troops because they 'could' have an aura affecting them.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 06:57

And if splinter racks will be the "fix" for our overpriced troop choices it just means that the option of not going in a vehicle becomes even worse in comparison.

For that matter I really like the suggestion of making the vehicles have a rule that distinguishes between the different types. That way raiders can become 10 points more and infantry 1 point less. And you can get a minor boost for kabalite raiders (or pay even more for the splinter racks) and get cheaper or a special rule on the wych cult raiders etc without paying for very expensive troops or vehicles who have rules you cannot use.

So yeah I am with regocrux here, all those extra options are great and I would love to have splinter racks. But I want to pay for the splinter racks when I take the splinter racks, not pay for the option of a goot transport vehicle with splinter racks in the basic price of my normal guys on foot.
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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 14:36

Fluff wise I like the fact we pretty much need to take vehicles for our troops to work. I cannot see any time Dark Eldar would footslog unless it was literally a group the size of a Kill Team. Especially when you look at the very premise as to why they raid... which is for slaves. Then they will need vehicles to carry these home.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 14:41

Lord Nakariial wrote:
Especially when you look at the very premise as to why they raid... which is for slaves. Then they will need vehicles to carry these home.

They must send for fresh vehicles after the battle as ours are generally smoking heaps of wreckage at that point.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 16:53

Quote :
Splinter racks don't fix anything other than splinter racks. They great! I want them! Weapons on troops are still the same. The re-rolls they used to mean aren't any different from the HQ auras of most armies. Getting that aura through a vehicle upgrade would be cool, but the other armies don't pay a premium on their troops because they 'could' have an aura affecting them.

Splinter Racks gave Twin-linked. There is a chance that they will still give Twin-linked. That's doubling the shots coming from Kabalites. That would be a HUGE deal.

Quote :

They must send for fresh vehicles after the battle as ours are generally smoking heaps of wreckage at that point.
A matched game (equal points) is not a correct representation of a Raid. I've read somewhere here that matched games could represent an Archon that fell into a trap/got a wrong info/got intercepted, and the raid thus transforms into an equal fight.

But for true and unfair raids, the Raiders will rarely be destroyed, and are used to carry the slaves home.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 18:23

Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :

They must send for fresh vehicles after the battle as ours are generally smoking heaps of wreckage at that point.
A matched game (equal points) is not a correct representation of a Raid. I've read somewhere here that matched games could represent an Archon that fell into a trap/got a wrong info/got intercepted, and the raid thus transforms into an equal fight.

But for true and unfair raids, the Raiders will rarely be destroyed, and are used to carry the slaves home.

Correct, a slave raid is not a fair fight. It is essentially a strike of terror that has meticulous foreplanning, along with many acts of sabotage that strike the most critical infrastructure at the perfect time.

Sure, a fair fight might be a bit interesting but a fair fight also gives your opponent... hope. That's a far too disgusting notion for my taste, I perfer my victims freshly traumatized or with a breeze of despair and madness. I mean, what are we? Barbarians?? I consider myself a connaisseur.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:01

But what better way to inflict total despair on your victim then by giving them what they believe to be a fair fight, and then take that hope away from them as they begin to realize that they never had a chance to win ... Let that soul crushing realization was over them as their fear begins to mount and panic sets in ...
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 21:54

Archon_91 wrote:
But what better way to inflict total despair on your victim then by giving them what they believe to be a fair fight, and then take that hope away from them as they begin to realize that they never had a chance to win ... Let that soul crushing realization was over them as their fear begins to mount and panic sets in ...

While it's true that DE have only contempt for their foes, and can be fooled into a sense of superiority by their arrogance, i think it's important to remember some things :

- When you have access to the Webway, you don't need to attack a contingent of Leman Russes and Baneblades. They can strike where they want, and there is A LOT more slaves to be harvested in a small city than in an open fight.
- Kabals and raids are about efficiency, not trolling the opponent (that's optionnal, but recommended). So i'm hesitant about the idea that an archon would take some risks only to show some lesser being that he IS a lesser being... that goes without any need for demonstrations.
- The DE have little political interest in the events that everyone is concerned about. They are not conquering, they are not defending, they are not crusading. They are... farming. That farming is NOT a game for them, it's essential to their survival. Failing a raid is not an option, and even if they are arrogant, they are superior minds and i doubt taking an open fight is something they would do.
- Everything in the DE culture goes against open fights.

So i think there is no reason for an Archon to engage a "matched game". Unless he got fooled or trapped. DE have the possibility to avoid almost most armed opposition when they go raiding, and they have no reason not to take advantage of that possibility.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Mon Oct 09 2017, 22:20

I agree with you Mppqlmd Smile. I should have made it clear that there was a bit of sarcasm to what I was saying ... As that is a bit difficult to transfer into text (at least for me) and was mocking that the way the rules are we have no choice but to engage in a "fair match" that forces us to confront a parking lot of leman russ', baneblade's and whatever else to get to our cattle.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 04:50

Archon_91 wrote:
I agree with you Mppqlmd Smile. I should have made it clear that there was a bit of sarcasm to what I was saying ... As that is a bit difficult to transfer into text (at least for me) and was mocking that the way the rules are we have no choice but to engage in a "fair match" that forces us to confront a parking lot of leman russ', baneblade's and whatever else to get to our cattle.
Oh my bad then Smile yeah this game is a bit strange.

It's like in WHFB, where you had to find explanations to why your lizardmen were fighting tomb kings, and there was literally no possible answer. Always cracked me up.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 06:05

Archon_91 wrote:
I agree with you Mppqlmd Smile. I should have made it clear that there was a bit of sarcasm to what I was saying ... As that is a bit difficult to transfer into text (at least for me) and was mocking that the way the rules are we have no choice but to engage in a "fair match" that forces us to confront a parking lot of leman russ', baneblade's and whatever else to get to our cattle.

There is no reason whatsover to make it a fair game.
One of the reasons why they proposed open and expecially narrative games. Most narrative games work best if the forces are not really the same size.
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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 21:37

Mppqlmd wrote:
Splinter Racks gave Twin-linked. There is a chance that they will still give Twin-linked. That's doubling the shots coming from Kabalites. That would be a HUGE deal.  

Not back in the good old days Wink



Regardless of how HUGE it is though the cost burden should be on the splinter racks, not on the models who don't even get to equip splinter racks.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:16

He is saying a 10-15pts upgrade on the raider to dbl the shots of the kabals with splinter weapons would be something to make us good against hordes.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:24

Ah. I see. Hm... Perhaps, yeah.

Or we could make shardcarbines our thing jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:39

A twin-linked splinter rifle is better than a shardcarbine. Not considering the sweet Rapid Fire 6 that splinter cannons would get (or, let's daydream, assault 12).

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:40

Sure, but the splinter rifle is not twin linked by itself. Splinter racks could also twin-link (or re-roll more likely) shardcarbines.

I'm not saying it isn't good. I'm only saying that we need to consider splinter rifles without the racks.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:41

We wont get Shardcarbines b.c no other models besides Sslyth and Scourges are boxed with them Sad

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:43

Easy fix. Make the stats of the current splinter rifle into that of the current shardcarbine. That's the fix I have been proposing. No new models needed. You could even call them Shardcarbines. It doesn't matter.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:47

Actually, you'd have to reprint every assembly guide for units that have access to both Shardcarbines and Splinter rifles if you wanted to switch the name. Assembly guides have to use the correct terms for weapons, otherwise they can't enforce WYSIWYG.

That means reboxing 60% of our catalog. Quite a big deal.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:50

Again, not really. There would be no difference other than aesthetics. Shardcarbines already look very different between the Scourges and Sslyth. So we know it doesn't matter. Plenty of other armies have different models of the same weapon.

To clarify, what we know as splinter rifles would cease to exist. So no model for them.
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:53

RegoCrux wrote:
Again, not really. There would be no difference other than aesthetics. Shardcarbines already look very different between the Scourges and Sslyth. So we know it doesn't matter. Plenty of other armies have different models of the same weapon.

To clarify, what we know as splinter rifles would cease to exist. So no model for them.

They dont look different, the Sslyth has a holster on theirs.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:54

Quote :
Again, not really. There would be no difference other than aesthetics. Shardcarbines already look very different between the Scourges and Sslyth. So we know it doesn't matter. Plenty of other armies have different models of the same weapon.

To clarify, what we know as splinter rifles would cease to exist. So no model for them.

I'm not talking about the models, i'm talking about the assembly guides. Those always provide some identification for the newbies to understand how to build WYSIWYG.

Currently, the Kabalite's assembly guide shows you what the correct piece for Splinter rifles, Blasters, DL, etc. are. If you wanted to rename the Splinter Rifle "Shardcarbine", you'd have to reprint every single assembly guide, because otherwise identification would be impossible.

Changing the weapon load-out of a unit is not an easy task. Not at all. Even changing the name of a weapon is a big task.



Other example (to make sure i'm understood here) : you'd think changing "Dark Eldar" into "Drukhari" is not a big deal... but they have been calling back boxes for months now, because they need to reprint everything. They did it for IP reasons (so it's a money prospect), so let's be clear : they will never do that for splinter rifle. They don't give a damn about calling it one way or another, there is no reason for them to undergo such a process.

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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:55

Like I said, then don't change the name.

Splinter Rifle, Assault 3, 18", Str *, etc...
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PostSubject: Re: On poison e splinter weapons.   Tue Oct 10 2017, 22:55

There is no reason to change it, they can just Buff the weapon or lower the cost etc... literally no reason to change splinter rifles model.

If we get new kits due to weapon change, it better be Reavers and we get the option to take a weapon per bike!

But they want it to be Equal to the Bolter (IMO it seems this way) so it will always be 24" Rapid 1. As a base on Kabals.

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