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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Why take Kabalites?   Mon Oct 02 2017, 22:11

In my recent games, I have fielded three units of 10 Kabalite Warriors with Dark Lance and Blaster in a Raider with a Disintegrator. The three units comes in at 690 points. Generally these units have been sitting about 18" from units that I don't want to reach melee, and their shooting output has been fairly underwhelming.

My 690 points gives me:
24 Splinter Rifles = 24 shots at 18" range
3 Dark Lances = each Lance worth 3/4 as usually needed to move
3 Blasters
3 Disintegrators

When I thought about replacing that firepower, it seemed to me that the Lances and Blasters are about the equivalent of a Dark Lance Ravager, and the Splinters could be replaced by 2 Venoms with dual Splinter Cannons (if I am aiming to stay at that 18" range). Making those changes is actually 160 points cheaper - which could yield two more Venoms (without the Splinter Cannon upgrade).

The alternative 690 points is:
Ravager Dark Lances
Ravager Disintegrators
4 Venoms (2 with dual Splinter Cannons)

with firepower of:
40 Splinter shots at 18" range
3 Dark Lances
3 Disintegrators

Giving up the Kabalites would mean I can't field a Battalion, and would need to have a Spearhead + Vanguard instead, so a loss of 1 Command Point. I would also lose Objective Secured, which given how short the life expectancy of the Warriors is outside their Raiders is of limited value.

On the plus side, the replacement units have more firepower, are harder to kill, and gives my Mandrakes an option for protection if they don't want to deep strike in. The advantages seem far ahead of the downsides to me.

Anyone have a convincing argument in favour of Kabalites, either in that form or some other configuration?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Mon Oct 02 2017, 22:15

Flexibility. They can assault (hitting on 2+ makes them okay, even if they are far from being a true CC unit). They have PGL. They have ObSec. They have bodies, so you don't lose everything when the boat hits the floor.
They are the potatoes of the army.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Mon Oct 02 2017, 22:30

They're dirt cheap, good for filling out Troops slots and one of the two best units to shove in our transports for a ranged-focus army.

Take them without upgrades if they're costing you too much - 10 basic Kabalites in a Dark Lance Raider only costing 185 points is probably going to deal less damage than other options you have, but might well last a bit longer.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Mon Oct 02 2017, 23:48

@Mppqlmd - some additional minor benefits there (assault and PGL). The extra bodies are not as resilient as the extra vehicles in my experience.

@Burnage:
To fill out the Battalion slots, the budget version would be:
30 Kabalite Warriors (30 Splinter shots at 18" range)
3 Raiders (3 Dark Lances)
555 points

That could be exchanged for:
Ravager with Lances (3 Dark Lances)
5 Venoms with (40 splinter shots at 18" range)
555 points

Essentially the same issue as with the extra upgrades (the alternatives have more firepower, are harder to get rid of and can transport other units if you can get benefit from that).

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 00:15

In my (limited) experience, if you just want to fill a Battalion out on the cheap you can do it with:

3x5 Kabalites + Blaster
3 Venoms (S-Cannon + Twin Rifle)
390pts

165 less than what you've put down. It's then a mere 35pts to upgrade each Venom to a Raider for carrying more dudes; either more warriors for bodies or more likely Trueborn or Incubi for punch. Also, you can only take one transport-per-other-unit in a detachment, so you have to be bringing something to justify a Venom-swarm.

I do agree that Kabalites do feel very weak though; the splinter-rifle is in a bad place this edition and with the other detachments available I am tempted to just bring mono-Trueborn.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 01:20

Voidhawk is actually advocating pretty close to my chosen Warrior complement.
I find a handful of Raiders and Venoms with Warriors in them to be of solid use, and I think the thing killing you is taking 35 points of just empty bodies in every squad while fretting the cost. The value of Warriors is not their shooting of splinter rifles, those are just a nice bonus. For everyone decrying how bad poison is this edition, I would point to the decade where our rifles were just lasguns with fancy names.

Take squads of 5, take a Blaster, because a Blaster is good, and then slap them in transports that you're apparently willing to pay for regardless. That will save you points overall, and provide perfectly nasty shooting, while also leaving you points free to buy other things that are also good.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 01:26

@Voidhawk wrote:
In my (limited) experience, if you just want to fill a Battalion out on the cheap you can do it with:

3x5 Kabalites + Blaster
3 Venoms (S-Cannon + Twin Rifle)
390pts

If you really want to fill out a Battalion cheaply you can take two Warlocks and three five-man Kabalite squads; that's three command points for a grand total of only 179 points.

Most splinter weapons are also fine as long as you're facing enemies that are T4 or above.
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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 02:00

Just wait for the stratagems!

Kabalites are lack luster for sure, but that's only because we are seeing all the cool stuff codex armies can do with their troops.

Well, and also because they are mediocre... Not like we have better options though. Stratagems will hopefully help.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 05:38

Kabalites are not mediocre. They are, point for point, one of the best infantry in the game.
BS3+ and WS 2+ for 7pts ? How is that remotely mediocre ?

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 06:12

Now look at it differently:
Your alternative 690 points is:
Ravager Dark Lances
Ravager Disintegrators
4 Venoms (2 with dual Splinter Cannons)

with firepower of:
40 Splinter shots at 18" range
3 Dark Lances
3 Disintegrators

now lose 1 venom (7 shots at 18) and exchange that for 2* 5 kabalites
you gained 3 shots at 18" and 12 extra shots if closer then 12. You gained objective secured and more bodies you can use for objective capturing. You gained some extra points, you gained melee capabilities.
And you lose some thoughness (gaining 10 t3 wounds vs 6 t5).

Kabalites are dirt cheap and offer the most splinter shooting point for point.
Don't bash on kabalites. But for dark lances yes ravagers are way cheaper then raiders for the number of dark lance you can get.
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 19:24

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Kabalites are not mediocre. They are, point for point, one of the best infantry in the game.
BS3+ and WS 2+ for 7pts ? How is that remotely mediocre ?

I only take b.c they are cheap AF, i dont consider them good.

I do consider Sob BSS the best troop in game, and comparing the 2 i hate Kabals even more.

BSS are 9pts each, so 2pts more gets you a 3+/6++ (no 6+++)
Bolt pistol with a gun
Grenades
3 Special weapons
can get 6 Fire Point Rhinos (cost the same)

IMO Kabals needs something to buff them.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Tue Oct 03 2017, 21:25

@Voidhawk Intead of 3x5 kab in 3 venom, you can pack 'em into 1 raider & 1 venom ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Wed Oct 04 2017, 00:41

\"amishprn86 wrote:
I do consider Sob BSS the best troop in game, and comparing the 2 i hate Kabals even more.

BSS are 9pts each, so 2pts more gets you a 3+/6++ (no 6+++)
Bolt pistol with a gun
Grenades
3 Special weapons
can get 6 Fire Point Rhinos (cost the same)

IMO Kabals needs something to buff them.

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you referring to when you type "Sob BSS"?  Thank you.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Wed Oct 04 2017, 02:13

Thanks for the various bits of feedback.

Possibly my query came across slightly differently to what I had intended. I'm not massively excited by the prospect of Venom spam, and trying to find a way to make it work, but was looking at what I got from my Kabalites in Raiders and seeing I could get the same or more firepower, and a more resilient force by switching to Ravagers and Venoms without taking the Warriors.

I think |Meavar's explanation points out the flaw in my thinking - the Venoms are not a more points efficient replacement for the Kabalite Warriors, the points inefficiency is with the Raider when compared to the Ravager instead.

My conclusions:
1) Kabalites in Raiders are inefficient ways to get Lances / Disintegrators - use Ravagers instead
2) Kabalites in Venoms are the better option if you want a Detachment using Troops
3) Mandrakes in Venoms (or at least with the option of the Venom) are the more efficient alternative if you don't want a Detachment using Troops

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Wed Oct 04 2017, 03:55

@Tounguekutter wrote:
\"amishprn86 wrote:
I do consider Sob BSS the best troop in game, and comparing the 2 i hate Kabals even more.

BSS are 9pts each, so 2pts more gets you a 3+/6++ (no 6+++)
Bolt pistol with a gun
Grenades
3 Special weapons
can get 6 Fire Point Rhinos (cost the same)

IMO Kabals needs something to buff them.

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you referring to when you type "Sob BSS"?  Thank you.
Sisters of Battle - Battle Sister Squad.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Wed Oct 04 2017, 03:58

@Thor665 wrote:
@Tounguekutter wrote:
\"amishprn86 wrote:
I do consider Sob BSS the best troop in game, and comparing the 2 i hate Kabals even more.

BSS are 9pts each, so 2pts more gets you a 3+/6++ (no 6+++)
Bolt pistol with a gun
Grenades
3 Special weapons
can get 6 Fire Point Rhinos (cost the same)

IMO Kabals needs something to buff them.

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you referring to when you type "Sob BSS"?  Thank you.
Sisters of Battle - Battle Sister Squad.

Thanks for posting this, and sorry, i forget that sisters of battle lingo doesnt go far lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Wed Oct 04 2017, 03:59

No worries, it's one of my other armies Wink
And you're right, totally one of the best values in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 01:15

Rather than Lances and Raiders, go Blasters and vanilla Venoms.

With 4, you can make a large semi circle of area denial for deep strikers. You get ObSec, bodies, screening, and okay ish shooting. At 520 points, you got plenty left for the units with more offensive bite.

It's a cheap investment to make your actually dangerous units more safe. IMO, only worth it if you want the ObSec and Battalion.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 10:18

Well, eventually, we would want a brigade. And since we are so used to MSU at least 4 squads of Kabs in venoms will fill the troop slots, apart from 2 something else, like wracks.

Looking at new stratagems, yes, we would want ours. Most assuredly. I think webway portal will be there.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 15:41

I have been simply taking x2 in a vanguard detachment. They are just there for Obsec. But I agree I will more then likely be taking x3 when out codex hits.
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 16:00

Last couple of games I've taken a Brigade and have used 6 x 5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster and PGL. They've been reasonably good (especially as we've been using the objective secured rule for them) although they've not really set the world alight.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 16:14

I usually field 4-6 five man squads in my lists.
I find them to be lovely - though a lot of the value is in their transport, natch.
But the squads inside assuredly add a solid amount of firepower for a very mild investment of points, and the value of the extra CPs from the detachment boost (with some help from Wyches to round out numbers occasionally) for re-rolls usually quashes any doubts I may have.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 16:17

I don't bother with transports for my Kabalites if I'm trying for a Brigade but would probably use Raiders for a Battalion.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 17:31

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I don't bother with transports for my Kabalites if I'm trying for a Brigade but would probably use Raiders for a Battalion.
The fact that 2 units of 5 can share a raider is definitly neat and can provide you with a sweet lot of blasters.

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PostSubject: Re: Why take Kabalites?   Thu Oct 05 2017, 17:59

Too bad we don't have Blaster combi weapons for the Sybarite...
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