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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 23:10

I believe in the Adeptus mechanicus faq they put out recently it states that the servator one does not require reserve points and they mentioned that "send in the next wave" operates exactly like that and the guard player would not have to pay reserve points to use that strategem
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 23:20

I'm not aware of the FAQ. If it's stated that it doesn't cost points, I'm fine with it.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 15:21

I haven't seen any FAQ regarding 'Send in the Next Wave.' Do you have a link, Archon?
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 15:34

Fresh Recruits (the admech stratagem) can only be used on a unit that is still alive on the table (hasn't been wiped out). That's why it doesn't cost any points, because it affects an existing unit like Necrons.

However the guard stratagem can be used on a unit that has been destroyed, and you bring in a new unit. Which is like summoning.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 16:02

Summoning doesn't cost CP, so it's not comparable, and in case of summoning it is says explicitly you must pay in points.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 16:30

@Logan Frost wrote:
Summoning doesn't cost CP, so it's not comparable, and in case of summoning it is says explicitly you must pay in points.

That's not how rules works. We have a general rule stating you must pay points to put new units on the map.

Having to pay CP points merely gives you the opportunity to put new units on the map. You still have to pay the points. Unless there is a rule explicitely stating you don't need to pay the points. Paying CP doesn't change that. The rule could say you need to pay 100$ and you firstborn to your opponent, you would still need to pay the points.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 16:39

@dumpeal wrote:
you must pay points to put new units on the map.
Sure, but it's not a new unit, is a dead unit you bring back.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 16:40

@Logan Frost wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
you must pay points to put new units on the map.
Sure, but it's not a new unit, is a dead unit you bring back.

Which is one of the specific examples mentioned in the rule!

Quote :
REINFORCEMENT POINTS
Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed. One of the most common examples of such an ability might allow you to summon a unit of DAEMONS to the battlefield. In a matched play game, you must set aside some of your points in order to use these units. The points you set aside are called your reinforcement points, and need to be recorded on your army roster (see below)."

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 16:43

And that that is why I should reread the rules before replying.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 16:47

Quote :
The rule could say you need to pay 100$ and you firstborn to your opponent, you would still need to pay the points.
So they finally released a teaser for the Slaanesh codex ?

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 17:50

What would be the point of brining back unit you payed for? This is kinda like wrong reserve.

Also how much reserve points? For that ver squad? Or for that consript squad? Or?

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 18:09

@Azdrubael wrote:
What would be the point of brining back unit you payed for? This is kinda like wrong reserve.

Also how much reserve points? For that ver squad? Or for that consript squad? Or?

As much you would have payed if you had just bought the squad normally.

This whole "take some points in reserve for reinforcement" rule suck. I would just get rid of it for everyone, and put somes restrictions o their use instead. But it's the rule as it is.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 18:12

Quote :
As much you would have payed if you had just bought the squad normally.

Well, at that point, you are getting a strange form of reserve, where you can bring specific squad that you payed for only in the case of another squad completely destroyed on the battlefied to a model. And you would arrive on foot.

I dunno, if i payed all those points and CP i would want at least Deepstrike from the unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 20:38

We're not saying that that rule is interesting or well designed.
That rule was made to prevent daemon summoning shenanigans and abuses, and it made summoning completly pointless.

Now GW is wanting to release new "summoning and resurrection" abilities, but it's almost like they forgot that they JUST creating a rule to prevent people from using that type of abilities.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 21:16

Yeah... They should have said something like "When a unit have the ability to spawn additionnal unit on the map, as tervigon brooding or chaos summoning, you can only spawn 1 single unit per unit possessing the ability. If you want to summon a second unit, you must first remove the previously summonned unit from the game"
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 21:51

The FAQ I meant was the Adeptus Mechanicus one, that was my mistake ... And I can't find where I got the idea "Send in the next wave" worked without having to have reserve points set aside ... It might have been in FLG's 27 Sept 17 podcast or I might have simply misunderstood something in the Valhallans preview and understood it to work that way.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:05

Does the unit that returns come on from your opponent's table edge? cause that could be an interesting tactic to sacrifice your unit up front to have it come back a turn later to hold backfield objectives where there were none before.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:14

No it specifically says "within your own deployment zone completely within 6 inches from the table edge and 9 inches from any opponents unit"
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:23

Ooh that's interesting. Allows the guard player to alpha strike anything that gets past the front line. Might help with protecting heavy weapon teams I guess. I agree with the argument that you might as well just bring 2 units to begin with.

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:43

Is this like the CSM cultist ability to use 2 cp to bring the unit back at full strength?  Do you have to use reinforcement points for both?

Cause a 40 man alpha legion cultists that start the game 9" from the enemy an can be brought back at full strength for 2 cp... dirty.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:45

@TheHostwiththeMost wrote:
Is this like the CSM cultist ability to use 2 cp to bring the unit back at full strength?  Do you have to use reinforcement points for both?
No, because you don't create a new unit/resurrect a unit.
Healing a unit doesn't cost reinforcement points, neither does bringing back models to a unit (like the Reanimation protocole).
But putting a new unit, or putting a destroyed unit back on the table, costs reinforcement points.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:51

@TheHostwiththeMost wrote:
Is this like the CSM cultist ability to use 2 cp to bring the unit back at full strength?  Do you have to use reinforcement points for both?
It depends on the exact wording.

- If it takes a living unit off the board and refreshes it (like the cultist ability for CSM) then it doesn't use Reinforcement points.
- If it takes a completely destroyed unit and brings it back to life, then it does use Reinforcement points.

The tactical difference is that the opponent can do something about the first (kill the unit before it refreshes), but not the second.

As another consideration, I've found that the existence of the cultist-refresh stratagem is enough to encourage opponents to shoot at cultist units that are down to 1 model, which would otherwise be useless. Which is fine by me, because I expended no CPs and they wasted firepower. Whereas in the second case, the IG player has to get the unit killed themselves, since a savy opponent won't bother to finish it off once it's reduced to an ineffectual level.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Thu Oct 05 2017, 13:21

@Mppqlmd wrote:
We're not saying that that rule is interesting or well designed.
That rule was made to prevent daemon summoning shenanigans and abuses, and it made summoning completly pointless.

Summoning is actually really powerful, as it lets you tailor your list after the game starts. It's also the only way for you to deepstrike most daemon units. It's pretty fun to summon 30 bloodletters against power armour, flamers vs hordes, exalted flamers vs tanks, or a horde of plaguebearers to secure an objective. It also allows you to effectively have reserves that come on after turn 3, as summoned units don't count as being in reserve so are not automatically destroyed.

Honestly if our webway portals worked like summoning it would be pretty awesome. As being able to webway in what you need when you need it and tailor to your opponent is pretty awesome.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Fri Oct 06 2017, 04:14

It is powerful, although the negative is you have less points on the battle field at the start of the game in order to use it.

In this ability's case I fully expect GW to faq it but the rules surrounding it are quite simple, even if you take Codex trumps rulebook.

1. Rulebook states that if a unit is summoned or brought back in matched play then it costs points to do.
2. Codex has rule that lets you bring back unit. This rule doesn't mention points, therefor the rule from the rulebook stands.

It doesn't matter what other codex's do. They might be an indicator to what was intended, or how something may be FAQ'ed, but that is all. So as it stands they most definitely cost points.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Fri Oct 06 2017, 05:00

@Mushkilla wrote:
Summoning is actually really powerful, as it lets you tailor your list after the game starts. It's also the only way for you to deepstrike most daemon units. It's pretty fun to summon 30 bloodletters against power armour, flamers vs hordes, exalted flamers vs tanks, or a horde of plaguebearers to secure an objective. It also allows you to effectively have reserves that come on after turn 3, as summoned units don't count as being in reserve so are not automatically destroyed.

The best reason ever for Beseech the Chaos Gods.

@Mushkilla wrote:
Honestly if our webway portals worked like summoning it would be pretty awesome. As being able to webway in what you need when you need it and tailor to your opponent is pretty awesome.

^^^GW please read this and listen, this is way better and way more fun (and will sell more models!!) than paying CP to deep strike.

Just let our characters be able to move first. Dang, can't get over how much I like this idea. Much more excited for our Codex.[/quote]
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