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 Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it

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RedRegicide
Wych
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PostSubject: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sat Sep 30 2017, 07:25

I watched a preview of the guard codex. It seems they are more powerful than before.

Only weakness is conscripts need to roll a 4+ to execute an order, whoopdie doo

I think we need to try and force a short edge deployment vs valhallans b/c they can respawn infantry. Perhaps try and bait them up, then fill their zone with mandrakes to prevent/stall respawn.

Sone of the other ones make charging them harder via better O/W, or their tanks degrade slower. Seems like we'll need to up our DL game for those armies

Any thoughts?

Edit: it seems the anti hoard list building challenger has become this topic, my bad

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sat Sep 30 2017, 08:20

Conscripts were nerfed in 2 ways : less reliability (i don't think many people will use crucial orders on a unit that has 50% chance of failing) and almost 40% less numbers. It hurts their damage output by significant amount.

But Astra Militarum as a whole was buffed, like every faction receiving a codex. Better Leman Russ, super cool orders for elite units (sniper plasma guns here they come !), amazing stratagems...

What GW intended was to force IG players out of their comfort zone by making Conscripts less appealing, and other choices more appealing. And i think they succeded : what's the point in spending 2 CP to bring back a 90pts conscript unit when you could spend those 2 CP resurrecting a full equiped plasma-wielding veteran squad ?

Conscripts are still going to be played, as meat-shields (what they are supposed to be). But now the damage won't come from them, it will come from tanks and elite infantry, like it's supposed to.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sat Sep 30 2017, 08:48

I was seeing someone say that, RAW, respawning Valhallan infantry have to use reinforcement points.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sat Sep 30 2017, 14:32

@Jimsolo wrote:
I was seeing someone say that, RAW, respawning Valhallan infantry have to use reinforcement points.

Seriously? My valahallan buddy didn't give me that impression. I expect errata should answer that

As for their nerfs, I guess I didn't really think about the soft nerf, limiting group size does weaken some orders, however, they can spend a CP to combine squads

My aforementioned valhallan buddy is doubling down on conscripts. Do you guys think the competitive scene will shy away from spam?

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sat Sep 30 2017, 14:40

"Send the next wave" doesn't work on combined squads, so they can't bring more than 30 conscripts back, which is not an incredible way to spend 2 CP. It's not bad, but not broken at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sat Sep 30 2017, 15:07

Okay, well you guys have definitely set me at ease. They are good but not OP like I first thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sun Oct 01 2017, 11:45

Here is the rule for Matched Play that effects Reinforcement Points, and that Stratagem.

"REINFORCEMENT POINTS
Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you
to add units to your army, or replace units that have
been destroyed.
One of the most common examples of
such an ability might allow you to summon a unit of
DAEMONS to the battlefield. In a matched play game,
you must set aside some of your points in order to use
these units. The points you set aside are called your
reinforcement points, and need to be recorded on your
army roster (see below)."

This is the perfect case of replacing a dead unit, and there is nothing in the AM book that would stop this matched play rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sun Oct 01 2017, 12:23

Have to admit, I'm more worried about Mordians than anything else...

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sun Oct 01 2017, 12:41

@RedRegicide wrote:
Okay, well you guys have definitely set me at ease. They are good but not OP like I first thought.

I dunno, it seems like a genuine fear that Guard are still going to be far too strong. Even ignoring Conscripts the Guard were in a really great place already and it sounds like they're mostly seeing buffs in their Codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sun Oct 01 2017, 16:30

Quote :
like they're mostly seeing buffs in their Codex.
Everyone is. I think it's too early to decide what's strong and what isn't.
A. M. doesn't look broken when compared to the Death Guard or the Space Mehreens. Indices don't really count anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Sun Oct 01 2017, 16:58

Definitely too early.  Im still hoping for a nice CWE codex, and DE early next year.

Im glad that their are finally other ways to play guard even though I dont play them.  I think every codex is going to be killy like this.  Remember though...  Guard still die pretty easy, although 2+ invuln ogres sound scary.  Any word if thats legit?
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 12:10

If the Valhallans aren't errata'ed I would be surprised. That rule seems completely useless if you have to pay points to use it.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 12:53

I can already see the argument locally. Both rules are in conflict and neither seems to trump the other. Using "old" logic of 7th and earlier, the ability trumps the general rule. So, I'm predicting, the argument will be heated (local Guard player is a notorious rules lawyer): But my order says I return them to the battlefield and it doesn't say anywhere that I'm supposed to set aside points for them.
We will argue: the main rule says is. Spells it out explicitly.
Lawyer: No. It would have to specify in the ability what it does just like every other ability. Every ability now specifies what it does.

Ugh. Hate this.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 13:04

Valhallans already pay in CP to bring in the new unit, they should not set point aside.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 13:13

@Logan Frost wrote:
Valhallans already pay in CP to bring in the new unit, they should not set point aside.

Why? Tyranid Tervigon spend points to pop up new units, while it's it's only real use. They can replenish wounded units for free though.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 13:30

It's a different game mechanic.
Tervigons are supposed to do that, you bring them explicitly to do that.
You use them to spawn part of your army in the middle of the battlefield.

Valhallans stratagem an extra ability, not something the troops are supposed to do, something you pay in CP, a different game currency.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 15:36

@Logan Frost wrote:
It's a different game mechanic.
Tervigons are supposed to do that, you bring them explicitly to do that.
You use them to spawn part of your army in the middle of the battlefield.

Valhallans stratagem an extra ability, not something the troops are supposed to do, something you pay in CP, a different game currency.

This would be my understanding of the rule as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 15:42

@Logan Frost wrote:
It's a different game mechanic.
Tervigons are supposed to do that, you bring them explicitly to do that.
You use them to spawn part of your army in the middle of the battlefield.

That's the reason why Tervigons suck : you have to pay the points for the Tervigon AND for the troops that he summons. They should include the price of the ability in the Tervigon's price, that's all.

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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 15:43

@Logan Frost wrote:
It's a different game mechanic.
Tervigons are supposed to do that, you bring them explicitly to do that.
You use them to spawn part of your army in the middle of the battlefield.

Valhallans stratagem an extra ability, not something the troops are supposed to do, something you pay in CP, a different game currency.

Precisely. You bring Tervigon explicitly to do that, yet you have to pay points if you pop up new unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 15:46

But we're all in accord that this Guard ability does not require you to pay the "resummon" points, right? It's just a built in ability that you use command points on - one and done.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 15:50

@nerdelemental wrote:
But we're all in accord that this Guard ability does not require you to pay the "resummon" points, right? It's just a built in ability that you use command points on - one and done.

No, we are not in accord. It's a new unit spawned and if there is not an explicit part in the guard rule preventing them to pay the standard cost, they have to pay it.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 15:54

@nerdelemental wrote:
But we're all in accord that this Guard ability does not require you to pay the "resummon" points, right? It's just a built in ability that you use command points on - one and done.

That's how I read it.
Similar to how Tides of Traitors is for Chaos. You don't expect a chaos player to pay the difference in dead cultists, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 16:03

@Logan Frost wrote:
@nerdelemental wrote:
But we're all in accord that this Guard ability does not require you to pay the "resummon" points, right? It's just a built in ability that you use command points on - one and done.

That's how I read it.
Similar to how Tides of Traitors is for Chaos. You don't expect a chaos player to pay the difference in dead cultists, right?

Tides of Traitors is a "repleshing" of an existing unit. You don't pay the point for it. As when you replenish a unit of termagant (and not creating a new unit of termagant).
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 16:11

You can remove the last cultist standing from a unit of 30 and bring them back for free, and Send in the Next Wave brings a dead unit back.
To me it is similar enough.
Necron and poxwalker replenish, not Tides of Traitors.
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PostSubject: Re: Guard weren't nerfed and how do deal with it    Tue Oct 03 2017, 16:18

@Logan Frost wrote:
You can remove the last cultist standing from a unit of 30 and bring them back for free, and Send in the Next Wave brings a dead unit back.
To me it is similar enough.
Necron and poxwalker replenish, not Tides of Traitors.

But for the ability to activate, you need to still have 1 cultist on the table. Not Next Wave. That's the difference. It may seems minor, but it's a HUGE tactical difference. For the first, you can prevent it to happens, if you focus the unit and wipe them totally. Not for the second.
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