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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 10:05

Hey all...help me out please.

Is the PGL worth it at 3 points?

When the rules for it first appeared I remember thinking how cool it seemed, and yet I basically never take it because for 3 points it just doesn't seem worth it...not when for an additional point you can equip an agoniser.

In the right scenario you could see it as causing a mortal wound on 2+ if your Archon fired it...but (and that is a big but) you have to cause enough damage on the unit and then hope it rolls high in the morale phase.

What do the rest of you think? Do you take them? Do you find them worth taking when you do?
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 10:19

I always take them if I have points to spare. For 3 points and being a weapon that can be fired in addition to my squad leader's rifle, I try and use it to milk every kill possible out of my Splinter gunboats.

It's not great, but it's one of our only offensive force multipliers and at least it isn't completely useless against most armies anymore.
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assassin
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 10:23

On its own its not great especially against armies that have good moral or some kind of fearless rule.
But I have found they combo awesomely with a Shadowseer's Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher, -1 Ld makes it much easier to get those d3 Mortal Wounds.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 14:22

If you just compare damage output, it is worth about 2/3 of a splinter rifle vs infantry at full range (it wounds only 1/3 of the time a splinter rifle would, but has 2 shots on average), and around 2 splinter rifles vs tanks at full range (because d3 shots, they are functionally identical in this situation otherwise). At the splinter rifle's rapid fire range it is worth about 1/3 of a splinter rifle vs infantry and around 1 splinter rifle vs tanks. This is disregarding its morale damage, but also disregarding that if you buy the extra kabalite instead of 2 PGL you will get an extra body.

Whether that makes it worth it - I don't know? I've run with and without, depending on points available.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 15:21

I've personally been unimpressed. Sure it's a cheap weapon, but -1 Ld won't exactly be game changing. I could see it working if each different weapon caused the debuff (allowing three squads of kabs to gang up on a Ld5 unit, or, with an appropriate point increase, each hit debuffing, but as it stands, it's an inconsequential weapon with inconsequential benefits and consequences. For me, it's the embodiment of "meh."

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 15:23

@TheBaconPope wrote:
I've personally been unimpressed. Sure it's a cheap weapon, but -1 Ld won't exactly be game changing. I could see it working if each different weapon caused the debuff (allowing three squads of kabs to gang up on a Ld5 unit, or, with an appropriate point increase, each hit debuffing, but as it stands, it's an inconsequential weapon with inconsequential benefits and consequences. For me, it's the embodiment of "meh."

This is where I'm at with it. I literally only take it if I've got 3 points left over at the end of writing a list.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 16:07

I think it's a neat little side trick that's worth it if you've got a few points leftover, nothing busted but usually worth the 3pts.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 16:20

I've taken at least 6 in every game I played and I didn't regret it once.
Fists and foremost, it doesn't need to wound to kill something. Every time something hit dies in the moral phase it repayed itself and probably another PGL or two.
Second, it occasionally manages to kill something in the shooting phase, do not underestimate the satisfaction to kill a space marine with a tennis ball.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 19:05

You shouldn't be surprised that it kills something occasionally. Wounding on 6+ with 3 shots is the same as wounding on 4+ with 1 shot (1/6*3 = 1/2). So if you think splinter rifles wound things then PGL will also wound things like about half of a splinter rifle, taking the average. If you can use the morale thing then it is even better. So if you have spare points it is not a bad buy, probably better than some.shock prows.

But if you are short on points, is it ever a priority to take PGLs? I would argue no, based on game experience. I haven't played with Shadowseers though.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 19:27

Honestly, I'd drop a kabalite to include some PGL, but it's a personal preference, 2 PGL per 10 models is a good investment to me.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 21:51

3pts...
The first time it makes a grot flee, it has payed itself.
If you make any valid infantry flee with it (or even if you kill any model with the S1 shooting), you payed for your entire collection of PGL.

It's dirt cheap, and it will kill things. And you can shoot it IN ADDITION to splinter riffles. So of course it's worth it.

You might not want to take tons of them, though. They don't stack, so 3-4 is enough for me.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 22:38

If it's on an Archon can you shoot a blaster as well as the PGL?
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Sep 21 2017, 22:42

Yup, you can shoot it in addition to the blaster, and impose a -1 to LD on a 2+.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Fri Sep 22 2017, 13:02

This is why I love this site...something that I fully intended to ignore I will now try and squeeze in to my lists.

Someone on another thread also made a good comment on the subject...if you find yourself firing at a vehicle with poison then straight away the PGL wounding on a 6+ but assault 3 is handy.

As always cheers guys!
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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Fri Sep 22 2017, 21:17

Like mpp and Logan have said, I echo, if it kills one thing it has paid for itself. I always take it on my archon, and I like to sprinkle it in on my kab leaders. It brings utility that we don't have anywhere else for a couple points, even if it is minor.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 01:26

Best bang for your buck out there - if it kills one model it makes double its points back. Should be your first go-to when you are filling out upgrades and/or have a couple points left over.

I like to put 'em on Archons for that 2+ hit roll.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 01:30

Personally I think they should stack, so you can pile on the leadership debuffs and cause massive damage with relatively few kills.
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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 11:19

@FuelDrop : true that. Now that I've tested them in real games, I'm a bit disapointed and doesnt find them very effective, especially because of Command points.

And I'm a bit jealous over Night lords, which can stack up to 3 times..

I really hope that our codex will add some Ld modifiers fun.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 11:42

Take a Death Jester to make Sergeants flee first, its a nice couple with Harlequin Band, also with Shadowseer grenades.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 11:54

@Azdrubael wrote:
Take a Death Jester to make Sergeants flee first, its a nice couple with Harlequin Band, also with Shadowseer grenades.

Has anyone else noticed that we synagize more and better with other armies than we do within our own army?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 12:58

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Take a Death Jester to make Sergeants flee first, its a nice couple with Harlequin Band, also with Shadowseer grenades.

Has anyone else noticed that we synagize more and better with other armies than we do within our own army?

Yes - I'm finding in particular that a Farseer is considerably more effective than an Archon or Succubus at synergizing with the rest of my army.

I think we're being heavily encouraged to treat our list as a combined Eldar force in this edition.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 13:25

@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Take a Death Jester to make Sergeants flee first, its a nice couple with Harlequin Band, also with Shadowseer grenades.

Has anyone else noticed that we synagize more and better with other armies than we do within our own army?

Yes - I'm finding in particular that a Farseer is considerably more effective than an Archon or Succubus at synergizing with the rest of my army.

I think we're being heavily encouraged to treat our list as a combined Eldar force in this edition.

Well I don't know about you but when I break out my Craftworlders I never find myself thinking "Damn, I wish I had X Dark Eldar unit for this role, they're so good for that!"
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 14:08

@FuelDrop wrote:

Well I don't know about you but when I break out my Craftworlders I never find myself thinking "Damn, I wish I had X Dark Eldar unit for this role, they're so good for that!"

Not even for sources of Lances? I mean Wave Serpents are great and all but they're more expensive for 1 less Lance, and still -1 to hit if you move.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 14:19

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Take a Death Jester to make Sergeants flee first, its a nice couple with Harlequin Band, also with Shadowseer grenades.

Has anyone else noticed that we synagize more and better with other armies than we do within our own army?

Yes - I'm finding in particular that a Farseer is considerably more effective than an Archon or Succubus at synergizing with the rest of my army.

I think we're being heavily encouraged to treat our list as a combined Eldar force in this edition.

Well I don't know about you but when I break out my Craftworlders I never find myself thinking "Damn, I wish I had X Dark Eldar unit for this role, they're so good for that!"

Kabalites, Scourges and Ravagers are all units that I miss when I start drifting away from the Dark Eldar. Our open-topped transports combined with good ranged weaponry are also very nice.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:05

Quote :
Well I don't know about you but when I break out my Craftworlders I never find myself thinking "Damn, I wish I had X Dark Eldar unit for this role, they're so good for that!"

I wish my infantry was able to shoot more than 12" away, from a transport ?

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