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 Using hellions to nail down melee units

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Burnage
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Oct 11 2017, 01:09

@Cerve wrote:
I use them more like a  fast poison shots. 6 of them are a Vemom in short range, not so bad per sè.

The problem with this is that a Venom is faster, cheaper, and much tougher than 6 Hellions. Their melee damage really has to come into the equation before they start looking attractive.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Oct 11 2017, 01:18

@Lord Nakariial wrote:
Seems it's a more common combo than I thought. It always surprises me how many sisters players crawl out of the woodwork when asked. Makes me question the marketing strategy of GW even more :/

I think it is a clash of playstyles.
T3 models with good toys and a notion of madness? Sign me up.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Oct 11 2017, 05:25

@Cerve wrote:

Basically they are a mix of both the troops, and a nice bait. Cheap, for what they are.

I would not really consider them cheap for what they are.
For a unit of around 7 (and a few points) of them you can have a venom including crew

14 shots vs 13 shots
13 s5 attacks vs 11 s4 and 3s4 ap-1 attacks
So far the hellions look quite good and are slightly ahead of the venom
But then the other side, defense:
7 t3 6+ wounds
6 t5 4+ 5++ -1 to hit and 5 t3 6+ (4++)

They hit quite hard (if you take both the ranged and melee into account)
But their defenses are horrible. People say that wyches are squishy, hellions are even more so (since melee is not safe for them) and they cost double the price of wyches.

Don't get me wrong, I like hellions, and against opponents that have never seen them before they sometimes work great. But against anyone else they know to just shoot a few anti infantry shots at them and they die.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Oct 11 2017, 05:47

For 17 points a Hellions melee damage is a joke. Compare with a 17 point khorne Beserker with axe. S 4 vs S 6. No AP vs -1 AP. 2 damage for the Hellion vs 1 for the Beserker. 2 attacks vs 4 (fighting twice). And the beserker has T4 and 3+ armour.

The hellion has better (but not good) shooting, and is faster. But the melee damage and udurability difference is too huge.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Oct 11 2017, 12:05

You forgot about drugs in your comparison. You also didn't mention the WS superiority.

Hellions are really good offensively : they have cheap poison (cheaper than vehicled kabalites), and honestly, 3 WS 2+ S4 AP- D2 damage is comparable to 4 WS 3+ S6 AP-1 D1 damage.

Damage against termies : 0.41 per Hellion (consider +1 Attack drug), 0.59 damage per Berseker.
If you factor the shooting (which is a lot better) and the mobility, they have the same potential IMO.
The problem is durability. If they got something like "Hard to hit", they'd be good.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Oct 11 2017, 23:06

@Mppqlmd wrote:
You forgot about drugs in your comparison. You also didn't mention the WS superiority.

Hellions are really good offensively : they have cheap poison (cheaper than vehicled kabalites), and honestly, 3 WS 2+ S4 AP- D2 damage is comparable to 4 WS 3+ S6 AP-1 D1 damage.

Damage against termies : 0.41 per Hellion (consider +1 Attack drug), 0.59 damage per Berseker.
If you factor the shooting (which is a lot better) and the mobility, they have the same potential IMO.
The problem is durability. If they got something like "Hard to hit", they'd be good.

WS superiority is only a thing turn 3+. Alpha Legion Beserkers are getting turn 1 charge, guaranteed. My last game ended turn 3. So yeah, +1 WS is not a given.

I did not factor in drugs, you are correct, but they are at best a small push in one area to almost catch up.

The Beserkers come in as the same vs termies by your math. But the Beserkers are also flat better vs hordes and 1-wound infantry, on top of matching the hellions against multi-wound infantry. AND they also have the durability edge.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Thu Oct 12 2017, 06:07

I must say I also think hellions really need something here, but it is mostly the defensive department/point cost reduction.

I agree that if they get hard to hit (and/or a point reduction) they will probably be mostly fixed.

Offensive they are quite ok. (my only problem is that dealing 2w is mainly usefull against high save models and thus some ap might be nice). Yes Hellions are not that good against 1w guys, they still fullfill a clear role for me.
But I must say I am kinda with Fueldrop as well if you compare the hellion against a beserker and you look at an common target of the hellion with all the most optimal buffs and you see the beserker is slightly better. We should also factor in the favorite target of the beserker (sororita) and compare that. (1.11 for the beserkers vs 0.55 of the hellions)
Don't get me wrong I think the hellion damage output is quite nice. But if we compare them to other units with similar cost they are pretty much always better, always in defense and sometimes in offense (often target dependent).

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