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 Using hellions to nail down melee units

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Ragnos
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PostSubject: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 07:12

Hi,

I just started playing WH40k with DE.

While reading the index I found the ability (hit and run) of hellions to retreat and attack in the same turn very interesting. I thought one could use them to block enemies from shooting with ranged attacks in their turn. Then retreat and enable own units to shoot at them with ranged attacks, the hellions as well as they are flying, and then engaging in melee combat again blocking the enemy units for the next turn.
Giving them extra toughness with combat drugs might help to improve their durability. Using the maximum number of models and placing them widespread might even allow them to block multiple units at the same time.

Has anybody tried this?

For me, it is a little bit hard to try against different enemies as I play against my brother who plays Tyranids most of the time.

Best regards,
Ragnos
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|Meavar
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 08:19

I really like the models of the hellions. But my experience with them is that if they do not kill their opponent they die very very fast.
Yes it can work for a turn, but a lot of enemies have an easy time dealing with it. It works with hellions, but usually I find other units do it better/cheaper.
They cost 17 points per wound with a bad save, which means that even non combat oriented units can usually kill a few of them each round in melee. And if there is another unit nearby they can often fall back and shoot the hellions to bits or asault and kill them in melee. And despite their speed it is often hard to get them into the right combat because they die very fast to normal shooting on their way in.
But against tanks etc which have very few attacks it really works.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 08:49

Tactic is valid, but Hellions arent that super doing it.
Couple of Starweavers vehicles with Harlequins do this *much* better.

Its also not that universal, cause units can just fall back.

Presumably you assaulted my Skitarii vanguard squad with Hellion and they survive. On my turn i know i wont be able to beat Hellions in CC. So i just fall back and let other part of army shred Hellions to bits. There is no point hanging around, i will not have ability to shoot anyway. Better to leave you in the open.

And if we are talking assault legitamate melee units with Helions..well...chances are they will die the turn you assaulted.

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Ragnos
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 09:12

Mhh, right. To be honest, I haven't thought about that.

What do you guys use your hellions for?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 09:38

@Ragnos wrote:
What do you guys use your hellions for?

Giving me an excuse not to dust my shelves.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:09

@Ragnos wrote:
Mhh, right. To be honest, I haven't thought about that.

What do you guys use your hellions for?

I've played a hellion heavy list when facing an Ork Biker army (it was to check if they would do good). They were pretty solid, since they are cheaper than bikes, but can kill them quite easily thanks to D2.

So i think they can be described as Bikes/Jetbikes counters, but it's very situationnal, and they are way too vulnerable to be used in a TAC list. Basically, they have the defensive statline of a conscript, but at a 17pts tag...

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 03:15

The fly ability of hellions means that blocking in models from the unit you charge so they cant fall back is not as hard as it is for other units - but then you need 12-20 hellions to get there and have bodies to complete the job

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 03:45

I think that Hellions need a price cut and the special rule "Jink! Shooting attacks against models with this rule are made at -1 to hit, and models with this rule gain +1 to their armor saves against shooting attacks."

A fluffy rule for them would be " Cackling Fiends!". No idea what it would do, probably a morale penalty when charged by them, but it seems like something they really should have.
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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 14:46

Hellions seem to work best for Horde control, being T4 and with their splinter pods to fire back into them when they run, they should do ok in horde situations...not great but ok.

How do they go to say Reavers who can throw in some heavy weapons into the arsenal?

The main issue I see with Hellions is that regardless of whether they pull it off or not a Venom full of Kabalites would be a bigger threat and work more efficiently.

@Fuel Drop, -1 to hit would be nice and make them a little bit more sturdy, as well as match to the fluff. I'd also think something like giving them an attack for flying over an enemy would work without engaging to represent the hooks, chains and other nasties tearing through the horde beneath. Gives them an interesting mechanic to work with.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 15:13

I think Hellions have a great damage potential, and just fall short because 17pts for a conscript defensive statline is ridiculous. But if you look at the pain they can inflict, for their price, they are neato.
So if they had a jink equivalent (probably just hard to hit or maybe an invulnerable save), i would definitly use them.
They are a very very very glassy cannon. Were they a little bit less glassy, they would work.

I'd love to see some utility on the stunclaw as well.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 15:38

@Lord Nakariial wrote:
Hellions seem to work best for Horde control, being T4 and with their splinter pods to fire back into them when they run,  they should do ok in horde situations...not great but ok.

How do they go to say Reavers who can throw in some heavy weapons into the arsenal?

The main issue I see with Hellions is that regardless of whether they pull it off or not a Venom full of Kabalites would be a bigger threat and work more efficiently.

I much prefer Hellions to Reavers at the moment. Two Hellions isn't that much more fragile than a Reaver for roughly the same points cost, and they'll be dealing considerably more damage (4 poison shots at 18 inches vs 2 poison shots at 12 inches, 4 S+1 D2 vs 2 S4 D1 attacks).

They're both too expensive for what they bring to the table, though.
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 20:23

@Lord Nakariial wrote:
Hellions seem to work best for Horde control, being T4 and with their splinter pods to fire back into them when they run,  they should do ok in horde situations...not great but ok.
I thought Hellions are Toughness 3?

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 20:29

They are T3, they can become T4 with the right drug, but I'd not recomand it.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 20:39

It has its uses. The problem is that it doesn't make them that much tankier, and they still cost too much to be used to draw fire.
They are the best candidates for the +1 A drug, though.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 22:39

Ragnos : Better use wyches, as they've got a special rules that randomly prevent enemies from backing.

Typically you want to have them in a raider/venom, disembark, move both vehicule & wyches towards enemies, charge with vehicule to soak overwatch (consider shock prow for the raider) and then charge with the wyches.

As both vehicules have fly, next turn you can have them fall back & shoot as usual.

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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Thu Sep 21 2017, 01:06

Yes, sorry I was meaning with the drug. Didn't even think of the bonus attack as that generally goes on my Wyches when I play test. Due to their weak strength would an extra attack make them any more appealing? Would it be worth giving them that buff over other units?

As a side note, @Masamune, I think we are one of very few people who have both a DE and Sisters army Smile

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Thu Sep 21 2017, 03:25

To showcase their fragility, on a BS4+ model, it will take, on average, just over 7 lasgun shots to down a single hellion. on a standard Space Marine (BS3+ and Bolter) it will take only 4 shots on average.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Thu Sep 21 2017, 09:05

@Lord Nakariial Oh nice Very Happy

I've always been in extreme guys haha

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Thu Sep 21 2017, 21:54

@masamune wrote:
@Lord Nakariial Oh nice Very Happy

I've always been in extreme guys haha

I think Teenage Angst also has the SOB/DE combination. He created a fluff where he could field both in the same army. Which is illegal now, so sucks for him.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Thu Sep 21 2017, 21:59

I have a smattering of Sisters as well, although they've dwindled.
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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Fri Sep 22 2017, 03:03

Seems it's a more common combo than I thought. It always surprises me how many sisters players crawl out of the woodwork when asked. Makes me question the marketing strategy of GW even more :/

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Fri Sep 22 2017, 04:06

Honestly, I am a big SoB fanboy even if I don't own any of their models.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Fri Sep 22 2017, 17:20

I think it makes sense that a player who is attracted to one red-headed stepchild army would be attracted to others, as well. Razz
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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Fri Sep 22 2017, 17:26

@Jimsolo wrote:
I think it makes sense that a player who is attracted to one red-headed stepchild army would be attracted to others, as well. Razz

This is very true! The red headed step child population should gather and storm GW until all thats left is soulless abominations that can't go outside if it gets overly sunny!

In reality though, all of this is there material, so it is in there best interest to look after it. They saw this with Wood Elves, they released them during the End Times as a test to see if the market was there and they sold out three times over in the first few months, which shows there is reason to look after these parts of the franchise even if it won't bring them as much money as a new space marine blister.

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PostSubject: Re: Using hellions to nail down melee units   Tue Oct 10 2017, 23:53

@Ragnos wrote:
Mhh, right. To be honest, I haven't thought about that.

What do you guys use your hellions for?

It's the cheaper mix of Kabalites, Wytches and Bikes.

They are fast (bikes) they bring poisoned shots (Kabalites), they hit a bit (Wytches).

When I use them, I use them for harrassing weak enemy units, and just being annoying around the map.
I don't throw them in CC normally, I use them more like a  fast poison shots. 6 of them are a Vemom in short range, not so bad per sè. I use them as a bait, both for shoot and/or enemy charges.
When possible, I launch them against veichles. With dmg2 and S5 (potentially) they can strip a bunch of wounds from veichles pretty easy.



Basically they are where the enemy want not to. Sometimes they'll die working as a bait, some other they'll grants you far objectives (or contending enemy objectives).


Being so "medium" helps a lot ot be ignored...until you're not using them for pressing the enemy. In that case they will die, but you have to get the best from it.


Basically they are a mix of both the troops, and a nice bait. Cheap, for what they are.
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