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lcfr
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PostSubject: Close Combat Units   Sun Sep 17 2017, 19:43

What have you cats been doing for close combat in your games? Do you tend to do much melee at all, and if so what's your approach to this and what unit/s do you favor?

I've been running a squad of 5 Incubi, pack of 10 Khymerae and 5 Mandrakes as my go-tos for combat. I don't use the Mandrakes for heavy, heavy lifting but on the charge both the Khymerae and the Incubi have done well by me. I'll never commit the Incubi to anything they can't kill in a round and I find them my most reliable melee unit, even if their relative power level means that sometimes I need to soften an enemy up with shooting before closing in for the kill.

I've been debating eschewing them for more Mandrakes to bog down backfield vehicles I haven't gotten around to killing yet but I think that'll leave me a little wanting in the CC department. Mandrakes are good at disruption but I don't find them to be a melee substitute against many armies with their lack of AP in melee.

What have been your big winners for melee? How much of your army is dedicated primarily to mopping up enemies in the Fight phase? Are those of you playing all shooting armies finding the lack of melee a huge drawback?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 00:35

In 1500-1850 points I usually tend to field 2-3 melee units, as I find that the way GW keeps designing us is to favor our shooting over our assault ever since late 5th edition. I think having at least 1-2 assault tools is pretty optimal for a TAC list of DE, as there are a decent pile of armies we can't out shoot, so it's good to have the assault tools to help gum them up.

I've been favoring Incubi, Wyches, Hellions, and the Succubus as my go to tools.
I would say the Succubus paired with Wyches or Incubi is probably my favorite.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 02:04

DE really wants to shoot for 2-3 turns then do melee, having 2-3 units is IMO a good TAC list.

Tho my Trueborn meleeing units into Objectives won me a few games, we dont need lots of melee, our melee units have a design to "handle" certain units,

Incubi = Anti-MEQ/TEQ
Hellions = Anti-Nids/Tau
Bikes = Spot vehicles/character snipes
Beasts = Horde/Teq/Cover (depending what ones you take)
Coven = What for codex but they are almost really good Anti-horde/Elite

Otherwise Kabals/Wyces are more soft CC and are they to support or clear up not to kill in melee.

However, you can take more, but the more you take the more of an up hill battle it will be, taking 0 isnt a bad option, but we do some good melee units that shine for their cost.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 02:39

I've been running quite a few melee-focused units in 1500 and 2000 point lists. Of the units I've used;

Succubus - She's okay. Almost certainly won't beat an enemy melee HQ unit in a straight-up fight, but can be quite good at tying up units and her aura's great in the right circumstances.
Wyches - Not great at dealing damage, but they're surprisingly tanky for such a cheap unit, to the extent that I'm considering using Painbringer on them.
Bloodbrides - I've not found them to be worth the points cost upgrade over standard Wyches.
Incubi - Hands down the best melee unit we have in my experience, at least in terms of potential damage. Only issue I've had with them is getting too cocky - even with the 3+ save, they don't last long against concentrated fire and if they fail a charge they're left very vulnerable.
Reavers - Probably my biggest disappointment, since I love their models. They just can't take or deal enough punishment for their points cost.

Personally, I've been finding that I tend to do much better when I lean more heavily towards ranged combat. 1-3 melee units to run interference and/or clean-up is probably the sweet spot.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 02:48

Reavers IMO are the number 1 biggest disappointment in 8th. And i also agree, no reason to take Bloodbrides at all.

But a unit of 3 Reavers can still great things, No upgrades, just take +2" movement and you can shut down enemy tanks turn 1.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 11:35

Dont know if its just me but i had such a huge disappointment from our melee units that i recently stopped using them altogether. Even the incubi, i dont know how, but they let me down every single time with the tip of the iceberg getting a 5 man incubi squad wiped by a single 5 man intercessor squad i almost cried...
So im using a pure shooty list with lots of raiders, venoms, ravagers and RJF and im doing MUCH better dont know maybe depends on the opponents but i mainly face marines, orks, chaos and tyrranids i can safely safely say im able to outshoot any of them IF i dont commit to close combat units and use superior speed and the ability to fall back and still shoot as my advantage to stay out of fights.
In the end the only units in my army that can do something worthwile in close combat are my 2 archons with the agonizers which i usualy use as melee locks and tanks to hold out dangerous enemys as long as the 2++ lets me...
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 13:47

I've had a lot of success with Hellions against marines Bikers lists (2 Dmg is huge against bikes and jets).
My wyches have helped me for various tasks, such as surrounding Necrons to prevent the protocole. They don't kill much though.
That's pretty much it.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 14:51

Tbh I have taken to just ignoring the fight phase with DE. My regular opponents have emough melee to make mine obsolete, so I don't even try.maybe a squad of incubi if I have to, but the points are better spsnt on more darklight.
World Eaters and Ultramarines are my most regular foes if you're curious.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 16:09

I dunno. a unit of 9 bloodbrides (syren with power sword, rather than agonizer) with a Succubus has performed adequately for me so far - at least, better than wyches, at the level where I consider it worth the additional points. Give +1S to the brides, and +1A to the Succubus. The greater number of attacks + rerolled 1s + S4 wounds manages to do a decent job of killing infantry.

Also, a unit of 4 grotesques with a haemonculus has performed well for me so far, as long as I don't charge them into something stupidly powerful - like a Knight.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 20:34

I always take Claw Fiends, a unit of Wracks and my Trueborns all have melee options, wracks and claw fiends also do work for me Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Mon Sep 18 2017, 21:48

For a 2000 point list using 2-3 dedicated assault units and not duplicating unit types, how effective would a squad of Blood Brides be compared to Wyches? The rest of the army would likely be planes and ravagers.

I have one squad of incubi. And I could bring grotesques, mandrakes, bikes, or hellions. And I could probably paint up some khymera at some point as well.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 00:40

The difference between a 10-model squad of Wyches and Bloodbrides is 40 points. Personally, I think I'd prefer to see if those points could be better spent elsewhere in the list before spending them on the upgrade - you might even be able to squeeze an entire additional unit in with them.

It depends on your list though, obviously. If you need them to deal damage then the upgrade will probably be worth it.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 01:18

A Warrior squad is 35pts, so you can.

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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 16:55

How much damage do you think the units would need to deal? If the list is primarily shooting, 2-3 assault units seem like they would need to be very efficient. Compared to a full assault army, where some efficiency could be absorbed into other units.

Also, is ObSec worth it for a unit in that type of army? Blood Brides drop that ability as well. So 40 points and the loss of ObSec.
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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Tue Sep 19 2017, 19:34

Bloodbrides with +s drug are quite killy against t4, and have few -ap weapons, they have cleared a sanguiry guard for me in two turns with succubus reroll support. With lucky 4+ and drain unlucky blood angels couldn't give any hurt back.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 00:28

@amishprn86 wrote:
I always take Claw Fiends, a unit of Wracks and my Trueborns all have melee options, wracks and claw fiends also do work for me Smile

How are you running your clawed fiends, how many and with or without a beast master?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 01:19

I take 3 and 1 Beast Baster.

So they have killed a 5man Termi squad (CSM DS them to try and pop a Ravager).
Tied down multi Vehicles and even killed 2 (My local is vehicle heavy).
Killed 3 our of 5 Sang Guard on the charge and held them for a turn.

The Beast Master really helps them and he even gets in a few wounds here and there, IDK if he is worth it tho. I'm still testing that out. The few times i took them in Ynnari as Single units it did really well (I keep them next to bikes, my WS w/ Fire dragons etc...) they make a good Anti-charge and activate SFD unit. But they didnt do much damage that way as a unit them selves.


So far i like them as 1 unit of 3, does a lot of damage to units with Multi wounds and 4++

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 01:44

Beast Baster lol!

Do they get SFD when the Beast Master dies?

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 01:45

They aren't Infantry or Bikes so they don't get anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 01:49

Correct they dont get anything, but they will easily give another unit it. for 35pts to do multi attacks with 2d moves 12 in a Ynnari list as a single model, they work really well.

I had 3 troupe units in melee once with 2 of them, vs 3 units of Wraithblades.... its was INSANE lol, that 1 turn of actives was about 45min long just for that 1 fight phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 02:32

When you say 'as a single unit are you just referring to the value o a single Clawed Fiends for its points or do you mean having several Clawed Fiends and having them as all independent drops?

Have you had experience running it both ways? What do you find works for you and are they ever also fulfilling the goals of backfield objective holders or anything like that?
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PostSubject: Re: Close Combat Units   Wed Sep 20 2017, 06:48

If i play DE its 1 unit of 3, if i play Ynnari its a single model unit.

I have not tried DE as single man units yet. Its not a bad idea to try.

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