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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:33

No.... you miss understand I DONT CARE IF YOU DISAGREE.

But you saying "gain more from PfP when you either inflict or suffer casualties."  Thats not true we DO gain benefits even if nothing dies..... thats what was being argue from my stand point.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:45

So you are saying that I am wrong and we don't gain MORE from PfP when there are casualties?

So just think about it...being immune to morale is useful when? Mostly when you have to make a morale test I would have thought, which you more often than not tend to do after you suffer a casualty!!!!

-1 LD to the enemy is useful when???? When they have to take a morale test surely? So when do they do that? Oh yes its when they have taken a casualty.

That is quite clearly two of the 5 PfP THAT ARE NEAR ENOUGH POINTLESS WITHOUT CASUALTIES SUFFERED!!!

Even having a 6+ save when a wound is suffered...if you don't suffer any wounds then you don't use the ability do you.

If you can't see that or you refuse to see that....then we are both wasting our time discussing it.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:45

Keep it civil please gents - Count Adhemar

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:46

Thats not the same thing tho.... anyways im done you dont get the point.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:49

@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats not the same thing tho.... anyways im done you dont get the point.

Not the same as what exactly? Because that is the only point I have made today.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:08

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats not the same thing tho.... anyways im done you dont get the point.

Not the same as what exactly?  Because that is the only point I have made today.

Dave, the point is that this system rewards a defensive playstyle conserving units while they gain in power, whether or not they kill anything, then making a devastating final turn assault with full benefits.

People dislike this as regardless of how well you are doing you are gaining in power, even if you manage to flub literally every shot for two turns (Totally not bitter, but those dice were sacrificed as a warning to the others...)

Our army is too frail to support this playstyle, as an alpha strike army that only gets to full power in the endgame is a contradiction in terms. The benefits are also focused exclusively on melee, while our army at the moment is at its best shooting.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:08

EDIT: FuelDrop said it really well, just edited out the wall of text from me


Also, no -1LD on turn 5 is not useful, turns 1-3? sure, turn 5? lol no.

Here is why

1) Most units are already under 1/2 size, making them much harder, or if they can even lose moral
2) 6" isnt that far, on turn 5its more important to win the game, and many of the time you are hunting objectives OR you have so few units you cant get within range
3) You either over kill them or they over kill you and not making it to turn 5
4) Most armies dont care about Moral

List of Armies that dont care;
Necrons - LD10 (and you have to kill a full unit so by turn 5 no more warriors will be on the table)
SM - they get Re-rolls and mostly are in 5 mans for more weapons or combat squaded
Nids - they either have Synapse or they are dead (or made a list that is all synapse)
Orks - Mob rule
DE - turn 4 DE auto pass
Eldar - never plays with more than 8 models in a unit and mostly are 3mans or 5mans
Ynnari - You are to busy killing all but 1-2 in a unit each turn so not to activate SFD that you dont need -1LD on turn 5
GSC - Normally are MSU of 5mans and they have Tanks/Nids for the rest of the army
IG - Always have characters literally in the middle of blobs that ignore LD

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:22

@amishprn86 wrote:
EDIT: FuelDrop said it really well, just edited out the wall of text from me


Also, no -1LD on turn 5 is not useful, turns 1-3? sure, turn 5? lol no.

Here is why

1) Most units are already under 1/2 size, making them much harder, or if they can even lose moral
2) 6" isnt that far, on turn 5its more important to win the game, and many of the time you are hunting objectives OR you have so few units you cant get within range
3) You either over kill them or they over kill you and not making it to turn 5
4) Most armies dont care about Moral

List of Armies that dont care;
Necrons - LD10 (and you have to kill a full unit so by turn 5 no more warriors will be on the table)
SM - they get Re-rolls and mostly are in 5 mans for more weapons or combat squaded
Nids - they either have Synapse or they are dead (or made a list that is all synapse)
Orks - Mob rule
DE - turn 4 DE auto pass
Eldar - never plays with more than 8 models in a unit and mostly are 3mans or 5mans
Ynnari - You are to busy killing all but 1-2 in a unit each turn so not to activate SFD that you dont need -1LD on turn 5
GSC - Normally are MSU of 5mans and they have Tanks/Nids for the rest of the army
IG - Always have characters literally in the middle of blobs that ignore LD

Also, does our leadership debuff have any effect if we're in a vehicle? Because if not then if you're doing too well and have all your transports still intact things get even worse for you.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:23

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
EDIT: FuelDrop said it really well, just edited out the wall of text from me


Also, no -1LD on turn 5 is not useful, turns 1-3? sure, turn 5? lol no.

Here is why

1) Most units are already under 1/2 size, making them much harder, or if they can even lose moral
2) 6" isnt that far, on turn 5its more important to win the game, and many of the time you are hunting objectives OR you have so few units you cant get within range
3) You either over kill them or they over kill you and not making it to turn 5
4) Most armies dont care about Moral

List of Armies that dont care;
Necrons - LD10 (and you have to kill a full unit so by turn 5 no more warriors will be on the table)
SM - they get Re-rolls and mostly are in 5 mans for more weapons or combat squaded
Nids - they either have Synapse or they are dead (or made a list that is all synapse)
Orks - Mob rule
DE - turn 4 DE auto pass
Eldar - never plays with more than 8 models in a unit and mostly are 3mans or 5mans
Ynnari - You are to busy killing all but 1-2 in a unit each turn so not to activate SFD that you dont need -1LD on turn 5
GSC - Normally are MSU of 5mans and they have Tanks/Nids for the rest of the army
IG - Always have characters literally in the middle of blobs that ignore LD

Also, does our leadership debuff have any effect if we're in a vehicle? Because if not then if you're doing too well and have all your transports still intact things get even worse for you.

Nope, no effects while in transports, another reason its bad.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:28

@amishprn86 wrote:

Nope, no effects while in transports, another reason its bad.

That actually leads in to an important point: DE are possibly the most transport dependent army in the game.

The current power from pain list has exactly 0 synergy with that, giving no benefits to vehicles nor to units in vehicles.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:29

Firstly I have never got into whether PfP is useful or whether all or just some of it is useful.  I happen to think that aside from the first 3 then the others are just an added bonus.  The 1st 3 I think are very very good rules for us.

Secondly we are as strong on turn one as any army out there, or near enough as strong.  DL are the bomb and we can take LOTS of them.

Personally I love how the PfP rules work in that as the game draws on, and you have lost units, the remaining units prove to be stronger through PfP.  In my mind this represents the strongest survive theory...it's thematic. For those of you who find that you have neither killed or had a model killed in their games, then I suggest you are playing the game wrong.

For me PfP is very cool, I like it, but no way do I think it defines us 100% and it certainly doesn't hold back our Alpha ability.


Last edited by Dark Elf Dave on Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:32; edited 1 time in total
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:32

Necrons do care about moral. Remember that a Necron that fled due to moral will never come back with the RProtocole.
Every game i win against Necrons is won by moral.
A lot of the armies you listed (orks, nids, SM) have some protection against moral, but aren't nearly as immune to it as IG are.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:34

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

Nope, no effects while in transports, another reason its bad.

That actually leads in to an important point: DE are possibly the most transport dependent army in the game.

The current power from pain list has exactly 0 synergy with that, giving no benefits to vehicles nor to units in vehicles.

I think this, more than anything, is the biggest problem with the current version of Power From Pain; it has very little synergy with how the Dark Eldar actually play. For a melee-heavy footslogging army that gets shot a lot and wants to win a war of attrition, it'd be pretty solid. For a shooting-heavy army that consists mostly of vehicles or troops in vehicles, it's not good at all.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:39

Chiming in to say that I completely understand D.E.Dave's point. I also prefer an escalating chart of abilities even though I also understand the "Power from patience" argument. I want a fast, streamlined, and predictable system.
I do not really love the idea of +1CP for killing things. It's got a lot of fluffy logic, but relies quite a lot on too many variable factors. Having just 3 big titans on the other side could mess me up. However, I could get behind it.

I do not love our current table for most of the reasons listed by everyone that's complaining about it.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:43

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Necrons do care about moral. Remember that a Necron that fled due to moral will never come back with the RProtocole.
Every game i win against Necrons is won by moral.
A lot of the armies you listed (orks, nids, SM) have some protection against moral, but aren't nearly as immune to it as IG are.

But you want to kill all necrons so they cant come back at all. If the unit is dead then none comes back.

Anyways 10man units with LD 10, eyah a -1 will help but on turn 5 if there are still 10 man units on the table thats very bad lol.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:44

I think there is a big lack of communication in the thread.

- Yes of course the PfP gains are based around inflicting pain. This is W40k, not My Little Poney. So the WAR bonuses you get are supposed to help you kill buddies, that's kinda the point of a Wargame.

- However, the way (the mecanic) in which those points are provided is absolutly not related to pain. You could be jacking off in your fancy expensive papership, the "Ooh, the powaaa, the paiiin !" phenomenon would still happen.


Right now you can have your army play Hide and Seek for 4 turns, then show up full of bloodrush with all the benefits of PfP. Do Dark Eldar feed on the frustration of their opponents ?

Power from Pain. From. You need to inflict Pain first in order to get the power. Currently it's not the case.



Quote :

Anyways 10man units with LD 10, eyah a -1 will help but on turn 5 if there are still 10 man units on the table thats very bad lol.
I absolutly agree with you that the 5th turn PfP gain is a big joke. I just wanted to say that my regular opponents play 20 man squads of Warriors, and i often kill 11-13 from shooting, and watch the rest run away (which is hilarious since they are killer robots).

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 13:55

Quote :
Right now you can have your army play Hide and Seek for 4 turns, then show up full of bloodrush with all the benefits of PfP. Do Dark Eldar feed on the frustration of their opponents ?


I completely agree that you can indeed do that...but do people actually really do that?  Do people really hide for 4 turns not shooting at the enemy and not killing anything at all?  It is something I 100% accept can happen but I feel that 99.9% it will not happen..in which case I can live with the rules 99.9% of the time.

Being able to hide for just one turn would be a fine thing! lol!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 14:01

4 turns ? No. The last 2 buffs are pretty meh.

But waiting turn 3 before you engage anything ? Absolutly.

"Yeaaaah, we could charge them now. But it's pretty early in the battle, and my hunger for pain hasn't kicked in yet, so i might not run far enough, and that would be awkward. And i would probably be less accurate in cc. So let's sit around, shot a bit more, and then we'll be definitly more pain-hungry. Yaaar, fearsome warriors here they come !"

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 14:18

Cackling away at the enemy's obvious psychological torment at seeing the merest glimpses of our horrifying visages is so Saturday morning cartoon villain that I can't help but love it. Bonus points if the Archon is monologuing while waiting for the perfect time to strike.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 15:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
4 turns ? No. The last 2 buffs are pretty meh.

But waiting turn 3 before you engage anything ? Absolutly.

I very respectfully have to completely disagree. In 8th edition? I'd love to be able to hide for just one turn. With the games I've played, inclusive of different factions, this is completely impossible. Even if my objective is to go as far away and hide, the current terrain rules, alone, make it impossible to avoid getting tagged. First turn conflict has been expected in every single game I've played so far. So much that we question its balance.
I even built a list specifically to try and maximize the PFP table by playing for patience. It's impossible. Which is why I agree that the current table is weak and skewed and several are absolutely worthless.

But I still like the concept of an escalating set of minor buffs over the course of the conflict.

Just a personal preference.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 15:44

"Engaging" means charging. I think most of the DE player wait before turn 2-3 to charge. Whether you manage to remain out of sight/combat before that is another question, but strategically, there is little reason to charge turn 1 with DE if you have the opportunity. Which is not very DE at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 15:51

Yes, the shooty options are already better then the melee ones, there is no reason to try and pull a first charge, or a second turn, and since you have already waited two turns you might as well wait three.

The best fluffy solution would be buffs rewarded per models killed, similar to how it was in 5th.

I like the new PfP table, it just doesn't suit the fluff.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 15:54

Now that I agree with Mpp.
But the point DEDave is making is that pain happens immediately. The illogical table notwithstanding, he's right, IMO. Pain happens the first turn of every game I've played.
We're just all getting lost in semantics and arguing about things that are completely irrelevant.

In the end, if they had a good, logical table, we'd still be calling it "Power from Patience" but it'd not be a contentious issue.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 20:22

I both love and hate the power from patience. Andf I think it depends a lot on how you look at it.
First of I have yet to see a game where no one was shot/assaulted the first round, killing does not matter, hitting and not wounding: is longer lasting pain which is better then killing them outright. But the main advantage of power from patience is despite what many people say, I think it really helps our playstyle in lore.
We might wish to attack fast and leave before reenforcement show up, true, if we asasult a village.
A real battle is more about gaining the power from pain during the battle, or because we want to annihalite them. In both cases it is as much a morale thing and much less a kill them as fast as possible. We want to play with our victims.

So despite it might feel irrelevant how we perform to get the power from pain, as mentioned above it does not often happen that nothing get's shot the first few turns. And even if it does not, then you are not using the buffs anyway, and you start further on the pfp chart because of the anticipation and buildup of fear has done more instead of physical pain, in the older books it was as much a mental pain like fear and despair we feasted upon then just physical pain.
Besides this I think it does have some good things going for it if we look at playstyle, mainly how we play if we want to make good use of power from pain:

First turns we are shooting, to "mob up/ capture" survivors late game in melee.
Not only does it help us play a mixture of melee and ranged instead of specialization of one or the other that craftworld does. It also means we can leave our boats at some point and even have an incentive to do so.

We are better late game, we want to attack at the right moment (we are tacticians), and let them wallow in fear for a few turns only helps us, as it should in my mind (let them fear each shadow thinking we might be there) before striking at them.
We first destroy their long ranged weapons and transports with shooting only to sweep in on the survivors to feel their esquisite horror once we are close and personel and they do not stand a chance anymore.




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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 23:45

In all honesty, Power from Pain makes so little difference in my games i routinely forget about everything past the first turn buff, and even then that's only a factor if my transports get shot down. It is such a nothing rule for me that I ignore it in determining if a unit is worth taking so habitually that I have a tenancy to forget it when doing mathhammer.
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