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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 12:11

So, this is a thread to discuss overhaul options for power from pain. There have been many good ideas over various threads.

A 7th edition rework I made that might be re-reworkable for 8th:
 

Obviously that would take a bit of reworking to come into 8th, but it might be a viable if bookkeeping heavy option.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 15:24

Eeeehhhhh.

I actually prefer the idea now of using Power From Pain as Strategems.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 15:39

I have 2 concerns :
- First, it's the most "difficult to keep track off" system for PfP that i have ever read.
- Secondly, frankly, it looks less powerful than what we currently have. It's LD oriented (but without giving the ultimate No Fear rule) and CC oriented (which is a complain a lot of people have with the current system).


To encourage an agressive playstyle, i think the +1 CP per kill would be interesting with a little twist : the extra CP that you gain has to be used within the same turn. But then it starts to really look like Ynnari...

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 17:54

PfP: All tiers of PfP only activate once it is your turn. All living models have a 6+ invuln save that can be used against mortal wounds.

Turn 1: All DE units are at -1 to hit in the shooting phase. (Night fighting)

Turn 2: +1 BS (heightened senses improves eye sight and keeps calm under pressure)

Turn 3: +1A

Turn 4: +1 to PfP save (5+)

Turn 5: d3 living units may shoot twice in the shooting phase or attack twice in the fight phase

Turn 6: All living units may either shoot twice or attack twice.

I feel that this is a good progression throughout a battle. Evasive, then shooting gets better, then you're in combat and you're attacking more, and then more resilient. The only ones I'm not sure of are 5 and 6. I elected to withhold the +1 to hit because there are already so many sources of this. Turns 2-4 boost kabals, cults, and covens in all ways. I miss night fighting, so bringing that back for turn one felt okay (although I'm sure this will be a stratagem).
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:19

-1 to Hit on top of having access to Fliers and transports that are already -1 to Hit seems overpowered. At least, I would not have any fun playing against an army that I was mostly -2 to Hit, and I don't think our PfP chart should make us an army people wouldn't want to play against.

The simplest and easiest PfP proposition I've seen so far is Mppqlmd's suggestion to gain 1CP every time the Drukhari player destroys an enemy unit (could even be non-vehicle enemy unit at the end of the day).

If our Strategems are built accordingly I really don't think this would be overpowered.

Outside of this suggestion, I think having a turn by turn chart is way more intuitive than counting Pain tokens again. And with a turn by turn chart you can also have Strategems that temporarily advance the PfP clock or basically just synergize well with it.

That said, given that ultimately a lot of army Strategems are going to look pretty similar and either provide rerolls or extra actions or buffs to hit or to wound, having the Drukhari work in a wildly different fashion by having VERY high CP but VERY powerful Strategems could add a lot of fun diversity to the game without contravening the core mechanics.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:25

I understand your point. But the vehicles issue will never come up. They do not have PfP. It promotes less transports if anything. We shouldn't be dependent on them
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:38

Ah right, that makes sense.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Mon Sep 18 2017, 17:35

There is one problem I see with doing the +1 CP or any PFP type chart that relies on fully killing units (and I have put one out there that relies on fully killing units ... And this concern applies to that as well) is that ... We are have a hard enough time killing stuff minus a couple very good weapons/models, for the most part however our arsenal and ability to fully kill units without dedicating more than we should to doing so means that there could easily be a turn or two where we don't get bonus cp or abilities and the army could fall apart on those turns. Plus a horde army would absolutely destroy our ability to gain cp as they have tons of models but maybe 5 total units and to kill even one of those is next to impossible for us. And it would only serve to further the amount of complaints that we have of very limited variety in the units and weapons we can take. If we become an army that is functional only if we kill a unit or two a turn our strategies and list will narrow even further to include only the absolute best option in each and every slot. Thus compounding the problem we have now where a good portion of our index just simply isn't worth taking. Plus with the amount of los blocking terrain that the dark eldar NEED to survive, it tends to give the enemy terrain advantage to hide and keep us from achieving the goal of killing a unit or two a turn.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Mon Sep 18 2017, 19:39

I share the concern @Archon_91 is having.
Killing 49 out of 50 conscripts would not give any CP.

It could work on a per model basis, something like +1CP per monster, +1CP per 5 infantry/bike.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 09:05

What is wrong with the current PfP rules? I think they are fine just the way they are.


I would be very against the idea of things like +1 BS and -1 to hit. For me PfP is like an adrenaline rush. That sort of thing makes you braver, faster, better in a fist fight, but not really more skillful (if anything your aim might get worse) and certainly not harder to shoot at.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 09:36

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
What is wrong with the current PfP rules?  I think they are fine just the way they are.

Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies.

Secondly, the buffs are pretty much all melee related but our melee units are mostly rubbish.

Thirdly, you need to wait 3-4 turns to get decent benefits from the rule but we're a fragile army that can't sit about and soak up punishment. We need to have a terrifying alpha strike because anything that survives it will be able to inflict a lot of damage on us. I don't mind being fragile but I want the cannon to go with the glass!

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mtruelove
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 10:06

I know it might be convoluted but I wonder how an individual PfP chart would work. Electro-priests have it where if they wipe out a unit their invun save increases. what if we had something similar where units climb up a chart each time they wipe a unit. The buffs could be more powerful as they're harder to achieve and it would really reward an aggressive play style. It could even be a different chart based on Kabal/Cult/Coven of your detachment.

I don't entirely dislike the current PfP but it does feel at odds with our fast striking glass cannon fluff.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 10:25

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
What is wrong with the current PfP rules?  I think they are fine just the way they are.

Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies.

Secondly, the buffs are pretty much all melee related but our melee units are mostly rubbish.

Thirdly, you need to wait 3-4 turns to get decent benefits from the rule but we're a fragile army that can't sit about and soak up punishment. We need to have a terrifying alpha strike because anything that survives it will be able to inflict a lot of damage on us. I don't mind being fragile but I want the cannon to go with the glass!

Thats my Problem, its 2 for melee, 0 for shooting and we dont gain anything for killing.
Also Number 5 is literally pointless, by turn 5 -1 to LD will never happen.......
And Turn 4, we pass Moral, by that time i dont need it either, i need that turns 2-3 mostly.

Im ok with PFP being our whole army gets Inured to Suffering, i rather like that actually.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:06

""Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies""

Disagree

I think it is fair to assume that as the majority of most games play out, that each side suffer casualties.  There are always exceptions but when writing rules you would surely base these on the most probable scenario...so I think you are being unfair with that assessment, on average models are dying in each turn and therefore a turn based tier for PfP is understandable and acceptable in both the rules and fluff.

I think people should try to remember that PfP is not a magic spell...it is a physical or psychological reaction.  For me PfP is doing exactly what it should be doing.  It should never buff our shooting.

Anyone with issues around the order sequence of the buffs should consider whether they would prefer -1 LD on turn two instead of re-roll charges because I wouldn't swap them...all of this seems like having your cake and eating it.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:17

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
""Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies""

Disagree

I think it is fair to assume that as the majority of most games play out, that each side suffer casualties.  There are always exceptions but when writing rules you would surely base these on the most probable scenario...so I think you are being unfair with that assessment, on average models are dying in each turn and therefore a turn based tier for PfP is understandable and acceptable in both the rules and fluff.

I think people should try to remember that PfP is not a magic spell...it is a physical or psychological reaction.  For me PfP is doing exactly what it should be doing.  It should never buff our shooting.

Anyone with issues around the order sequence of the buffs should consider whether they would prefer -1 LD on turn two instead of re-roll charges because I wouldn't swap them...all of this seems like having your cake and eating it.

I understand it shouldnt buff shooting, but it doesnt "help" shooting, there is a difference, +1 toughness or Insured Pain +1 would HELP shooting and melee. Just as an example.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:20

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
""Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies""

Disagree

With the greatest respect, you can't really disagree with the statement that I made. It's a fact. An army that neither sustains nor inflicts any casualties throughout the entire battle gets exactly the same benefits from PfP as an army that tables their opponent.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:52

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
""Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies""

Disagree

With the greatest respect, you can't really disagree with the statement that I made. It's a fact. An army that neither sustains nor inflicts any casualties throughout the entire battle gets exactly the same benefits from PfP as an army that tables their opponent.

An army that neither sustains nor inflicts any casualties throughout the entire battle will not benefit from the majority of PfP

1. Injured to pain - No benefit - Not suffered a wound so no rolls to make or you could say that you have suffered lots of wounds but that you have made every single 6+ but I would argue that constitutes receiving pain

2. Eager to Flay - Does benefit - but obviously not so eager to flay

3. Flensing Fury - Does benefit - but obviously not so furious

4. Emboldened - No benefit - No casualty taken

5. Mantle of Agony - No benefit - No casualty inflicted

So I think that quite clearly shows how well PfP links to both pain suffered or inflicted in the battle.


Last edited by Dark Elf Dave on Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:55; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:54

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
""Firstly, they have precisely zero relationship to pain suffered or inflicted in the battle. An army that sits back and does nothing receives exactly the same benefits as an army that is bathing in the blood of its enemies""

Disagree

With the greatest respect, you can't really disagree with the statement that I made. It's a fact. An army that neither sustains nor inflicts any casualties throughout the entire battle gets exactly the same benefits from PfP as an army that tables their opponent.

An army that neither sustains nor inflicts any casualties throughout the entire battle will not benefit from the majority of PfP

1. Injured to pain - No benefit - Not suffered a wound so no rolls to make
2. Eager to Flay - Does benefit - but obviously not so eager to flay
3. Flensing Fury - Does benefit - but obviously not so furious
4. Emboldened - No benefit - No casualty taken
5. Mantle of Agony - No benefit - No casualty inflicted

So I think that quite clearly shows how well PfP links to both pain suffered or inflicted in the battle.


Whether or not the rule helps, they still get thr rule. I think thats the point here.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 11:58

Exactly! The progression in PfP relies not on pain but on time, hence why it's often referred to as Power from Patience.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:00

Quote :
Whether or not the rule helps, they still get thr rule. I think thats the point here.

That is not the point at all...

The point being made was how do the current PfP rules link to pain and suffering and I think that the rules are quite clearly linked to pain and suffering.

That facts are clear, you gain more from PfP when you either inflict or suffer casualties.  Whether the rule remains either way is irrelevant.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:10

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Quote :
Whether or not the rule helps, they still get thr rule. I think thats the point here.

That is not the point at all...

The point being made was how do the current PfP rules link to pain and suffering and I think that the rules are quite clearly linked to pain and suffering.

That facts are clear, you gain more from PfP when you either inflict or suffer casualties.  Whether the rule remains either way is irrelevant.


wtf.... SO PFP right now you gain the bonus NO MATTER WHAT even if NOTHING DIES how is that "POWER" "FROM" PAIN"... thats power from hiding.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Exactly! The progression in PfP relies not on pain but on time, hence why it's often referred to as Power from Patience.

So an alternative to that would be that for each unit killed, an entire army gains a PfP level. That could be OP if on turn one you did indeed manage to kill 2-3 units.

I think PfP is very fair and fluid within its current structure.

100% I see the point of those that run a 100% shooty list, that they don't intend to get into CC...but that is their choice after all. There will always be that day where re-rolling your advance to claim an objective wins the game or re-rolling your charge with your Kabs hitting on 2's again wins the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:16

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Quote :
Whether or not the rule helps, they still get thr rule. I think thats the point here.

That is not the point at all...

The point being made was how do the current PfP rules link to pain and suffering and I think that the rules are quite clearly linked to pain and suffering.

That facts are clear, you gain more from PfP when you either inflict or suffer casualties.  Whether the rule remains either way is irrelevant.


wtf.... SO PFP right now you gain the bonus NO MATTER WHAT even if NOTHING DIES how is that "POWER" "FROM" PAIN"... thats power from hiding.

You are just making me repeat myself now...like I have already said the way the rules work right now is that there is VERY LITTLE POWER FROM PAIN without casualties on the board.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:18

I said it again b.c you dont make sense, you literally said "That facts are clear, you gain more from PfP when you either inflict or suffer casualties. Whether the rule remains either way is irrelevant."

But we dont, literally nothing can "suffer casualties" and we still gain the power.

We are saying we would like it to ONLY give us power when things die.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain   Tue Sep 19 2017, 12:23

@amishprn86 wrote:
I said it again b.c you dont make sense, you literally said "That facts are clear, you gain more from PfP when you either inflict or suffer casualties.  Whether the rule remains either way is irrelevant."

But we dont, literally nothing can "suffer casualties" and we still gain the power.

We are saying we would like it to ONLY give us power when things die.

It is very clear to me but as is usually the case on here, just because I disagree with something you say, you refuse to see the point I so clearly made.

We don't really "gain the power" if the benefit doesn't have an effect on the game.  If we had a special rule that said all of your units are invincible against Squats then the rule exists but what is the gain?

All I  said is that in most cases there is little benefit from PfP without casualties on the board and you are free to ignore that but I still feel that is the case. You may indeed prefer a different delivery method for PfP but that doesn't change the points I have made one little bit.
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