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 The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 11:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Mortal Wounds are almost certainly the best way to kill him as they bypass his Toughness, armour and invulnerable, leaving only Disgustingly Resilient to protect him. About 2300 points worth of Mandrakes ought to do the trick! Mad

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 11:56

So... against Splinter shots, what is his %chance to fully ignore a wound? 85%?

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 11:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
So... against Splinter shots, what is his %chance to fully ignore a wound? 85%?

That does sound about right.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 12:01

Also:

@FuelDrop wrote:
For a DPS comparison, how long does it take Mortarion to kill Mortarion? Or does he die before he can do it? Razz

Lets say, because of consolidating, we have a Mortarion quite close to a Mortarion at the satrt of a turn, at full health.
Each turn, they'd start by dealing 2 Mortals by Smite, and 1 for plague Wind.
Shooting phase, hit on 2s, wound on 3s, but with saves. Lets assume this shot gets through, for 3 more damage. Many assumptions on a more restricted calculation! 3 damage done.
So far we've done 6, anf then 2 more at the start of the Fight Phase for Host Of Plagues.
In combat, 6 attacks using Silence in big mode, 5 wounds, 3 get through becoming 9 damage, of which 6 get through.
A total of 14 wounds dealt!

So it would take Mortarion two turns to kill another Mortarion (or two Mortarions teaming up for a single turn) - not counting other buffs from powers or other units.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 12:24

@Squidmaster wrote:
Also:

@FuelDrop wrote:
For a DPS comparison, how long does it take Mortarion to kill Mortarion? Or does he die before he can do it? Razz

Lets say, because of consolidating, we have a Mortarion quite close to a Mortarion at the satrt of a turn, at full health.
Each turn, they'd start by dealing 2 Mortals by Smite, and 1 for plague Wind.
Shooting phase, hit on 2s, wound on 3s, but with saves. Lets assume this shot gets through, for 3 more damage. Many assumptions on a more restricted calculation! 3 damage done.
So far we've done 6, anf then 2 more at the start of the Fight Phase for Host Of Plagues.
In combat, 6 attacks using Silence in big mode, 5 wounds, 3 get through becoming 9 damage, of which 6 get through.
A total of 14 wounds dealt!

So it would take Mortarion two turns to kill another Mortarion (or two Mortarions teaming up for a single turn) - not counting other buffs from powers or other units.

That is impressively damaging.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 13:30

I know, right?!
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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Sep 20 2017, 13:46

I took down Girlyman with my Magnus Tzeentch army the other week and thought Girlyman was slightly OP (unlike Magnus who I actually quite enjoy because he takes wit to play well), but compared to this guy...What the actual Fukushiima GW!?

Next to come back will be Horus (somehow they'll find a way) with the strategem "3CP, you win the game".

I hate when they make a model with no actual weaknesses accessible by all armies.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 11:10

Anyone fought against Morty yet? I'm likely to be facing him tomorrow and I'm quietly bricking myself!

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 12:03

There is a league player that is playing him, but for some reason we havent fought yet....

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 12:33

I worked out that with the list I'm planning to use, IF I get 1st turn, IF Mortarion is in range and LOS of my entire army and IF there are no Deathshrouds to take hits from him, I might, maybe, possibly, have enough firepower to take him out in one turn.

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 13:21

Ooof. Nice. How much firepower are you using there?
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 13:29

@Squidmaster wrote:
Ooof. Nice. How much firepower are you using there?
ALL of it.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 13:51

Tantalus, 2 Ravagers, Reaper, 2 squads of DL Scourges, 2 squads of Dark Reapers, 3 squads of Rangers , Maugan Ra and a few psykers

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 18:50

Ha. I literally did this exact same exercise for Mangus on dakkdakka.

EDIT: I can't post links cuz I'm a newbie.

TL;DR, I crunched the various benchmarks combinations of weapons to handle Magnus, and the best case sceanario I could come up with was about 1700 points of shooting required to take down Magnus in one round.  That's theoretical points, by the way, not the actual way you might be able to reasonably build an army.

I have no idea if DE have a cost-effective answer to either one of the Daemon Primarchs.

@Lord Nakariial wrote:
I took down Girlyman with my Magnus Tzeentch army the other week and thought Girlyman was slightly OP (unlike Magnus who I actually quite enjoy because he takes wit to play well), but compared to this guy...What the actual Fukushiima GW!?

I have no idea what Girlyman is like because I've never played against him, but I have played against magnus, and I literally cannot comprehend how you think Magnus takes "wit" to play.

IMHO, both Morty and Maggie are broken.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 21:50

Well, IMO they are easier if you take Eldar, just take Eldar HQ's (Farseers on bikes) and 1 Death Jester use all your rules to lower LD, make sure you get a really high cast (9+) on Mind War, you can get them to -5 in total, but thats only on late game, -3 is really easy to do, PGL, Death Jester, horrify, (for range LD lowering abilities).

You could have -2 from a Hemlock as well. Sadly Eldar Soup is the way to go as DE (1200pts DE 800pts Other) to deal with hyper Comp units.


Lastly, they all are MC, you could take 3 Bombers and get 3D6 chances to do MW's, tho thats only (from 3 Bombers) 6 MW's

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Wed Nov 01 2017, 22:17

Fun trick with mind war: use Embolden on the Farseer rather than Horrify on the target.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 04:26

@FuelDrop wrote:
Fun trick with mind war: use Embolden on the Farseer rather than Horrify on the target.
To bad you can not do both.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 04:33

Another fun trick with mind war, get your hemlock nearby to cast horrify and Warlock to cast embolden on farseer. 5 point LD swing
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 12:28

@|Meavar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Fun trick with mind war: use Embolden on the Farseer rather than Horrify on the target.
To bad you can not do both.
Actually you CAN do both, because each of the "double powers" counts as two separate ones. It's spelled out explicitly in the codex, p124, right at the top under Runes of Battle, even with a "cast both Conceal and Reveal in the same turn" example.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 15:20

And what about Grots with Flesh gauntlet? Best with Farseer with Doom and turn 3 +1 to hit? Very Happy Is enough place for models to do that in CC?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 15:29

@Salen wrote:
And what about Grots with Flesh gauntlet? Best with Farseer with Doom and turn 3 +1 to hit? Very Happy Is enough place for models to do that in CC?

Mortarion butchers Grots and they do very little to him. Takes 3 Grots to even do a single wound to him!

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 21:45

Quote :
Takes 3 Grots to even do a single wound to him!

Would perhaps be better if they were viable to begin with.

There is no point in taking Grots where you can take wracks. A 4+ poison is a 4+ poison, so why pay for a huge monster ?

Wracks are already better, but not nearly enough to defeat mortarion.

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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 21:48

MW on 6+ from Flesh gauntlets?
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 22:09

5 Grotesque have 20 hits with flesh gauntlets and 5 with monstrous cleaver. So 3 units of 5 in turn 3 make 5,56 unsaved wounds from gauntlets+ additional 5,56 unsaved MW and 1,39 from cleaver. Expensive but with Doom from Farseer? We can do it! Very Happy or my math is wrong what is possible.
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PostSubject: Re: The "How Much To Kill Mortarion" Calculation   Thu Nov 02 2017, 22:27

If we are already talking an alliance between Craftworlders and Dark Eldar, maybe Wraithblades with axe and shield, plus doom and empower?
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