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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 02:30

Im going to try this out my next game. Was wondering if others have.
Raider dis cannon
4 truborn blasters
1 dracon aganizor blast pistol PGL
2 trueborn splinter cannon
2 trueborn splinter rifles
1 Archon aganizor blaster
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 03:16

Why are you taking splinter cannons? People have totally talked about doing this. They take Dark Lances. There is also less than 0 point in filling a vehicle with bodies you don't really need. By that I mean you're literally hemorrhaging points on something that doesn't move towards your goal.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 05:05

I think it's too many eggs in one basket but I've played with two units of Trueborn with a mix of 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Blasters in Venoms and I've had a great time with them. Try them out and see how it feels for yourself, conventional wisdom is usually right but learning it first-hand costs you nothing and is better than just absorbing the internet and parroting it (not suggesting that is what amorrowlyday is doing btw).

My playstyle is to play 18" from the enemy for at least two shooting phases and spit out as much firepower as possible with my Farseer supporting with Doom, a psychic power that really lets mass Splinter weaponry shine. I've been finding that having double Splinter Cannons on my Venoms coupled with their consistent mobility works really well, it is not usually tough to outmaneuver opponents and hit with all of my vehicles' weight on one flank while the rest of their army is forced to reposition.

Point for point in a fair fight I don't think the Cannon is particularly great but when you weigh in and make it a dirty fight (dirtier with Psyker support) you can really punch some holes in enemy non-vehicles.

Raiders aren't my preference because their profile degrades and they're not Hard To Hit, so by my standards where they win out is in cost efficiency and darklight access, I still prefer the Venom as a mobile firing platform, and I think churning out 24 Splinter shots and 2 Blasters shots from a Trueborn unit in a Venom is nothing to sneer at.

tldr I think you can find success with Trueborn and Splinter Cannons but I'd say keep it MSU and incorporate it into your typical playstyle for best results. If you find after some trial and error that Splinter Cannons are poor investments then there you go. I've not found this to be the case, but try it for yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 06:31

Im running 2xtrue born units with 2x SC and 2x Blaster I do agree. Im just trying to scale some points back by moving stuff around.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 06:32

So just keep it a blaster boat?
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 07:07

I think you should take the plunge if your style already involves Raiders and then go from there ! Would love to hear if it rolls out the way you intend. Are you currently playing your Trueborn in Venoms or Raiders ?
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 07:31

Yes I am running 2venoms with TB 2x SC 2xBla and one unit blaster born in the raider W/ Archon.

The units in the venom where doing well. I was thinking of adding some splinter cannons to the raider.

I actually have 5 venoms and one raider.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 07:59

Holy crap that's a ton of Trueborn. That is amazing, it's like your Kabal is a fallen noble house from the nights before Vect took over. Sorry for crap out so hard I just love that you've rocked so many Trueborn.

I'd say given how much heavy lifting those three units are doing I'd just fill a Raider with 10 basic Kabalites with an upgrade and if your opponent is targeting this Raider and not your Venoms they're in trouble. So either your big squad gets mooked or they get ignored and can score an objective or VP for you late game.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:03

Why is every one anti splinter cannons. I believe they could use a point reduction. However the rapid fire is fine for trueborn they want to be 18" away anyway. I mean you still get 24 splinter shots from a venom at 18" plus 2 blasters.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:06

@lcfr wrote:
Holy crap that's a ton of Trueborn. That is amazing, it's like your Kabal is a fallen noble house from the nights before Vect took over. Sorry for crap out so hard I just love that you've rocked so many Trueborn.

I'd say given how much heavy lifting those three units are doing I'd just fill a Raider with 10 basic Kabalites with an upgrade and if your opponent is targeting this Raider and not your Venoms they're in trouble. So either your big squad gets mooked or they get ignored and can score an objective or VP for you late game.

How many units of Trueborn should I take in a 1850/2000 point list?
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:12

So this is what I have been building toward. I forgo the PGL and I kinda want to drop one razorwing and make the other one have dis cannons. Then find room for 2 FW reapers


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [87 PL, 1946pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Faction Keyword Filter

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 73pts]: Agoniser, Blaster

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Elites +

Kabalite Trueborn [8 PL, 184pts]
. Dracon: Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon

Incubi [5 PL, 90pts]
. 4x Incubi
. Klaivex: Klaive

Kabalite Trueborn [5 PL, 129pts]
. Dracon: Agoniser, Blast Pistol
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon

Kabalite Trueborn [5 PL, 129pts]
. Dracon: Agoniser, Blast Pistol
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges [6 PL, 150pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges [6 PL, 150pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 170pts]: 2 Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 170pts]: 2 Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [6 PL, 126pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Shock Prow

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

++ Total: [87 PL, 1946pts] ++
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Sun Sep 17 2017, 18:37

I would drop the Splinter Cannons on the RWJs for sure. I think their value is in letting you have the ability to play at arm's reach from your opponent, the range is just as important as the damage output, which is what a lot of people tend to shrug at for various reasons.

On a Jetfighter you're in many cases going to be flying right beside enemy units, this is definitely a case where you are paying 15pts for an extra two Splinter shots but no assistance to play at range.

The argument I usually read is that "For the price of a Splinter Cannon I can buy one more Scourge or two more Warriors and have bodies and just as much firepower."

Splinter Cannons aren't worth it on Scourges, of course, but to compare a 15pt weapon that fires 6 shots at 18" to two one wound models that fire 2 shots at 24" and, probably only rarely, 4 shots at 12", feels disingenuous. Or, at least, is simply taking into consideration a different strategy.

I want to play mobile and put out as much firepower as I can at 18" and I can't do that with Splinter Rifles, and can't justify it without something like Splinter Racks or some other buff.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 01:56

Ok well i LOVE trueborn, i norammyl just play 3-5 truenborns in a 2k list (depends if i want to play blaster spam or DL spam).

My trueborn has won me many games, they are 2 attacks (3 with Draco and he has an Agoniser) loads of weapon options (tho its normally 2 blasters or 2 DL's) and i also take them in Raiders (i like those vehicles more).

As for Splinter cannons.... they suck, they do NOT do enough damage to justify the cost.

Is they were.... 8pts, sure. or if they were 6 shots, sure.

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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 05:01

@amishprn86 wrote:

As for Splinter cannons.... they suck, they do NOT do enough damage to justify the cost.

Is they were.... 8pts, sure. or if they were 6 shots, sure.

Respectfully, I think you're not only wrong in your assessment of Splinter Cannons but you've also stumbled into like...what's clearly the Splinter Cannon fanclub pirat , call us fools if you will but we are pretty okay with Splinter Cannons and at this point we're chatting the fine points of Subsanity's list.

That said, YES, Splinter Cannons could do with either a cost reduction or an increase in damage output. It would certainly improve them, and it would be a valuable change. Nobody disagrees with this. They're not 'obvious choices' but frankly the less 'obvious choices' this game has the healthier it'll be.

I'm not selling the Gospel of the Splinter Cannon to ANYONE, but here are a few reasons why I like to use them and how I've been finding success with them. Subsanity and I seem to play extremely similar lists (Subsanity's list is much shootier than mine, though) so I suspect we have similar playstyles that have led us to be able to agree that SCs are working fine for us.

I play Venoms over Raiders, because I prefer the durability, mobility and consistency offered by Hard to Hit, a non-degrading profile, and 16" movement over +4W and expanded transport capacity. It allows me to let my army lean in exactly where they need to lean in with a 34" threat bubble (16" Move + 18" Rapid Fire Splinter Cannons & Blasters). It streamlines my decision making process and until they Explode I know exactly what they're capable of, rain or shine.

I also prefer to run a more elite force where every unit has a very specific role. Kabalites just don't tickle my pickle for that reason, and I'm no Napoleon but I've been finding games of 8th are pretty quick and brutal, so I like bringing as many specialists as I can to get surgical on the right targets.

But here's some math!

A Raider with a Disintegrator and 10 Kabalites with a Blaster comes out to 210pts, and at 18" puts out 9 Splinter shots, 1 Blaster shot, and 3 Disintegrator shots.

GEQ     2+.55+1.33=3.88
TEQ    .5+.37*D3+.88*2=3
MEQ     1+.55+1.11=2.66

With Farseer Doom support

GEQ     3+.93+1.77=5.7    
TEQ     .75+.62*D3+1.18*2=4.35
MEQ     1.5+.93+1.47=3.9
T7 3+Armour Vehicle     .61+.59+.92=2.12/.61+.59*D3+.92*2 (Or .61+1.18+1.84=3.63)

A Venom with two Splinter Cannons and 5 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Blasters comes out to 210pts, and at 18" puts out 24 splinter shots and 2 Blaster shots.

GEQ     5.33+1.11=6.44
TEQ     1.33+.74*D3=2.07
MEQ     2.66+1.11=3.77

On Doom

GEQ     8+1.29=9.29
TEQ     2+.86*D3=3.72
MEQ     4+1.29=5.29
T7 3+ Vehicle     1.63+1.18=2.81/1.63+1.18*D3 (1.63+2.36=3.99)

Here's a double Splinter Cannon Venom with 4 Blasterborn for the same point cost

GEQ     2.66+2.22=4.88
TEQ     .66+1.48*D3=3.62
MEQ     1.33+2.22=3.55

On Doom

GEQ     4+2.58=6.58
TEQ     1+1.72*D3=4.44
MEQ     2+2.58=4.58
T7 3+ Vehicle     .81+2.43=3.27/.81+2.43*D3 (.81+4.86=5.67)

Pfft I forgot the Dracon's Splinter Rifle in the Trueborn calculations, but it doesn't change anything really.

So if you value Troops for ObSec and value 5 extra bodies then go for the Raider. That's a valid choice. Its damage output is only superior against TEQs, but I won't argue with someone who likes the security that can come with ObSec and more wounds.

But particularly if you're running Farseer backup, then the more dice you're throwing at a situation the more damage potential you have. I am okay trading away security for potential.  

Maybe some of my numbers are off here and there, I'm open to correction, but based on what I'm showing, and coupled with the playstyle I prefer, I don't think Splinter Cannons on Trueborn suck. Or at least, for their role, I don't think there's a better weapon for the points cost that performs the same role, unless you're willing to spread basic Splinter Rifle fire across more units. That's valid too but, again, it'll play a little differently.  

If I play 4 Venoms and I opted to fill ALL my Venoms with Kabalites with Blasters instead then point for point they're coming VERY close to the damage output of two squads of Trueborn with the above loadout (less a Blaster so it's a fair accounting for 580pts) and have twice as many bodies, but now we're toying with the ability to focus fire from a given Venom and we're spreading the fire output over more vehicles. That's valid too, but it's going to result in some slightly different play as well.

Would the Splinter Cannon be broken at 10 or 12pts for the same weapon we have now, or 15pts for a Rapid Fire 4 or 5 weapon? No, I don't think so. But at that price point the math would actually suggest it as the potentially 'obvious choice,' rather than a tradeoff that hinges on style preference, which is where I believe things currently stand.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 05:15

If we are going to talk about bring doom in then might as well play Specters with Ynnari and not play DE.

Or how about you look at JUST 2 Splinter cannons damage over 5 turns vs 1 Dis Cannon over 5 turns

Dis Cannons: 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, -3ap, 3x5 shots = 10 Dead Marines
2 Splinter Cannons: 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 0ap (6x5 = 3 Dead) (12x5 = 6.5)

So just looking at the Long game 30pts of Splinter cannons does less (almost 1/2) the damage of 30pts of Dis Cannon.

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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 05:28

I think your math is off, but again I'm open to correction.

One Disintegrator fires 3 shots, hits with 2, wounds with 1.33, and after a 6+ save deals  1.11 wounds. The 2 Damage of the Disintegrator doesn't matter because Marines have only 1 wound.

A Splinter Cannon at 18" fires 12 shots, hits with 8, wounds with 4, and after 3+ saves deals 1.33 wounds.

Pound for pound the dual Cannons are better but I'd also posit that they're more likely to HAVE multiple rounds of firing than anything equipped with a Disintegrator, whether it's a Razorwing or a Ravager.

I'm also bringing up the Farseer because my argument isn't just math in a vacuum, playstyle is at stake too. The Farseer is just there to emphasize what I'm saying about weight of fire and potential.

Dissies are solid weapons regardless and I'm not advocating running Splinter Cannons exclusively or anything. Weapon choices aren't an either/or decision binary, I believe in a world where Disintegrators and Dark Lances and Splinter Cannons live together in harmony cheers


Last edited by lcfr on Mon Sep 18 2017, 05:50; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 05:49

Oh yeah it is off, miss type (i have a program that does the math for me i click D2 instead of D2 sense it was a Dis cannons)

But outside f 18" its not even 1 kill (0.67 wounds) vs always 1.11 wounds and that is 2D so you can kill Multi wound models AND wounds vehicles on a 5+ (sometimes 4+) vs a 6+

For a weapon that HAS to be within 18" at 15pts to kill 1 model.... how is that good?

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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 06:21

Frankly Disintegrators are just a little more limited in supply and, again, will not only involve different target preferences but also probably have a different shelf life on the battlefield because they're in rarer supply and opponents with multiwound models sensibly would want to knock out threats to them first.

But yeah, the Dissie definitely wins out against multiwound models and can even play at 36", it's a fantastic weapons for sure. And Splinter Cannons are definitely junk at 36", no argument from me there, but that's also why I strap them on a consistently mobile vehicle and play the game at 18", playstyle context matters.

Again, the Cannon, particularly coupled with Doom but even without it and based on the math, purs better for me on the battlefield in larger numbers. It's easier for me to have access to a lot of them whereas the points cost and lack of units able to field Disintegrators makes them more prohibitive choices.

Again, I'm not making an argument for a force comprised exclusively of Splinter Cannons.

Look, at the end of the day if you still think Cannons are trash there's not much more that I can offer you as evidence that I haven't already: I've given you math and the context of playstyle so we're not just talking in a vacuum and I've accepted your own chosen case of Disintegrators vs MEQ and explained why even there, and basically in every case but TEQ and vehicles, the Splinter Cannon outputs more damage.

Don't run them, I guess? Don't ever spend 15pts on it. You seem like you're faring well in 8th so don't fix what ain't broke on account of me.

I've put up as much evidence as I can and it's a little frustrating that all I'm getting back is "well they suck" and "how is that good" with nothing constructive or comparative. Just....don't field them if you think they're trash, I really don't know what else to say that I haven't already, and you've offered no evidence for me to abandon them and a playstyle that validates them.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 06:42

@lcfr wrote:
I've put up as much evidence as I can and it's a little frustrating that all I'm getting back is "well they suck" and "how is that good" with nothing constructive or comparative. Just....don't field them if you think they're trash, I really don't know what else to say that I haven't already, and you've offered no evidence for me to abandon them and a playstyle that validates them.

15pts for less than 1 wound a turn on average is my argument.

You HAVE to get within 18" to make it on average 1 wound a turn.

This is a weapon made for long range fire power with heavier damage as it moves in, and it goes from less than 1% to 1% for 1 wound that needs to be within HIGH threat range.

PS: Im not taking a Farseer to make MY DE armies weapons worth it, i'd rather just play Eldar then.

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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 07:17

I'm looking forward to the improvements the Codex brings to it, for sure, I think it should do more damage or have a cost reduction (more damage is my hope).

That said, I've shown that compared to equivalent expenditures in points the Splinter Cannon is better at killing MEQ and GEQ and gets better with Farseer support than its competitors because of its weight of fire.

I've accepted that the trade off is less bodies in the army, and I'm okay with that for the same reason people still run Blasterborn rather than spread 4 Blasters out over multiple Kabalite squads. There's an argument for the concentrated fire of Trueborn and there's an argument for more bodies and split fire. Both are valid.

We're really not getting anywhere, because I'm arguing that a given playstyle and method needs to be accounted for and you're asking for numbers in a vacuum. And even after I've provided them to you, albeit using 18" as the constant, you're still just claiming that it's not cost efficient without proposing alternatives.

And I know what the Splinter fire alternatives are already, it's more Kabalites or naked Scourges. They're both valid choices too.

MY choice hinges on using that 34" threat bubble as efficiently as possible, I've never hid that fact! Like I said, I'm not raiding the forum for members to sell Splinter Cannons too, I realize that some people don't like them and that's okay.

I've put forth every possible reason I can muster as eloquently as I can to justify my choice for my typical lists. I'm not asking you to adopt it or for your approval.

I'm kind of tired of beating this horse to death with you, if you think they're crap that's fine, I truly don't care because you've put nothing on the table for me to chew on as an alternative, but can I suggest maybe at least making a constructive critique of Subsanity's list or proposal then? I got it, you think the Cannons are trash and I can't convince you and you can't convince me. Let's move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 07:28

I didnt expect to get anywhere with you..... i wasnt trying to change your mind, i just said 15pts for maybe 1 wound is bad, if you feel thats good enough thats your opinions, and we both have different views on what is good then.

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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 15:28

After reading all this perhaps i should just keep play testing.... Lol

I rebuilt the raider with dis cannons and I have two kab with DLs. I will proxy the DL as SC and play both to see.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 15:42

@lcfr wrote:

The argument I usually read is that "For the price of a Splinter Cannon I can buy one more Scourge or two more Warriors and have bodies and just as much firepower."

Splinter Cannons aren't worth it on Scourges, of course, but to compare a 15pt weapon that fires 6 shots at 18" to two one wound models that fire 2 shots at 24" and, probably only rarely, 4 shots at 12", feels disingenuous. Or, at least, is simply taking into consideration a different strategy.

You're not looking at all the facts correctly. With the exception of Warrior/Trueborn Splinter Cannons, you see these weapons on models that already have a decent number of splinter shots. The Venom and Razorwing Jetfighter come with Twin Splinter Rifles which already boasts a Rapid Fire 2 profile. That 15 point upgrade gives you an extra one or two shots and 12 more inches.

A scourge on the other hand, has three poison shots, is an extra body (not an extra gun), and can deepstrike.

Our army doesn't play well with upgrades, we're too fragile to keep them healthy during a 5+ round game. I've had better luck with a stripped down version of the army than taking Blasters and Splinter Cannons on everything that can equip them.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 16:49

I think a Cannon is wasted on a Jetfighter that will usually have no trouble being able to fire 4 Splinter shots at a nearby unit that can't retaliate by charging. The Venom doesn't enjoy the Airborne defense so gets most value, so long as it's carrying models, at a safe(r) 18".

A Venom with no upgrades is firing 5 shots at 24", 8 shots at 18", and 10 shots at 12".

Meanwhile with both Cannons you're always firing 12 shots at 18".

I run 4 Venoms and on top of that 4 more Splinter Cannons on Trueborn in my usual list. If I cut out 8 Splinter Cannons (48 shots at 18") I can take another naked Venom that adds 8 shots at 18" and another squad of 5 Kabalites with a Blaster that adds 4 more Splinter shots at 18" and a darklight attack.

I don't want to make that trade, because I prefer less bodies and more shots packed into mobile and durable vehicles. All the power to you if you prefer naked Scourges for fire output but the small shelf life they suffer from at 18" makes them unappealing to me. I would rather they also use long-range (relative to what they have available) to be their defense at 36". At least if they're being targeted for annihilation it's usually by heavy long range guns that then aren't shooting my vehicles.

Less bodies for more shots from mobile vehicles works well for me, but there is definitely a tradeoff that I realize not everyone values.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn assault raider   Mon Sep 18 2017, 20:44

Stop talking about it.

Go read and comment on it here
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t15726-double-splinter-canon-venom-worth-it

We literally went over this already, if you want to know what we all thought or argue more, take it there.


As far as the topic is concerned, you have a couple options

1) Put large amounts of points into 1 vehicle and risk it, high risk/high reward
2) Dedicate the units to either Long range AI/AT or Short range AI/AT

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