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Burnage
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 23:58

@forest90 wrote:
im coming from a differnt perspective, tyrinds wound on a conscript with 4+ also but atleast you have double tap and ranged advantage plus saves. my bugs dont just 4+ that usualy fails  to even hit then anotehr 4+ that just gets shrugged off

I'm not sure what you mean by this - Tyranids have plenty of S4 and above attacks with good chances to hit. Genestealers, Fleshborers, Devourers, etc.

Compare that to the Dark Eldar, where almost all of our anti-infantry weapon is the equivalent of S3 against Conscripts.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 00:11

they have them but in order to use them i have to get in range. flashbore( basics) is only range 12, i can upgrade to devour for literaly double points and get 18, but agian if your compairing to kabalite warriors with 24 rapidfire, you still get a turn of free shooting and double tap once im iin actual range to shoot
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 00:18

just cause these options are valid and ideal doesnt make practical use, to counter said kabalites my option is hormagaunts, melee who can run in b4 the 2nd volley, but in order to make that work i have to invest in such a large brood its about 200 points and they will still loose their efficiency once i loose 10 models. genestealers are by all means superior but also more expensive. 2x units i can burn 500+ points and even with the 5+ invulnerable they dont save very much. and without the body mass to get them their. they loose their efficiency after a hand full of failed saves. not to mention doing either strat means sacrificing 2 slots just to deal with 1 enemy slot.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 00:25

@forest90 wrote:
just cause these options are valid and ideal doesnt make practical use, to counter said kabalites my option is hormagaunts, melee who can run in b4 the 2nd volley, but in order to make that work i have to invest in  such a large brood its about 200  points and they will still loose their efficiency  once i loose 10 models. genestealers are by all means superior but also more expensive. 2x units i can burn 500+ points and even with the 5+ invulnerable they dont save very  much. and without the body mass to get them their. they loose their efficiency after a hand full of failed saves.  not to mention doing either strat means sacrificing 2 slots just to deal with 1 enemy slot.

I suggest using hive guard to gun down the raiders. DE lose most of their advantages once you take out their vehicles, effectively becoming very expensive guardsmen.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:01

ive tried hive guards they still work but expensive for a better replacements. but your thought processing are still carrying over, if one units isnt good enough disgard it and just take more of something better. i havnt had a lose since the mid of 7th edition, except for a few casual matches and someone that brought a teir1 list to what was supposed to be a casual tournement for new players.

but as for how to play nids, hive gaurds are great but since i have to take in groups of 3x-6 its just not practical play style easily 300pts and since most games are 1k theirs simply to much fodder to even consider 6 shots just to deal with a few tanks. this is were the tactical/strategy factors come in. i have no way to offically deal with a lord of war,i have options to take care of vehicles and swarm but no weapon capable of doing both. and since my key units always share the same force slots i have limited access to it often better to take a different strat. typically zoanthropes and just use them to tar-pit what ever they can. some time winning a game or finding a winning comp has nothing to do with killing power but denial power. 2 small squads of zoans are the same value as 1 squad of hive gaurds and non of the killing power, but their survivability is retarded so i can take more units with similar funcitons( tar-pitting namley) and just deny my opponents from moving and i can use excess units/slots to obtain objectives.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:16

@forest90 wrote:
ive tried hive guards they still work but expensive for a better replacements. but your thought processing are still carrying over, if one units isnt good enough disgard it and just take more of something better.

Actually my thought process is using units in concert to strip away enemy advantages by playing to the strengths of my army (indirect fire AV weapons) and exploiting their vulnerabilities (fairly fragile transports) in order to take away their primary advantage (being able to move 14 inches and still fire from the safety of an armoured hull) and leaving them vulnerable to my cheap anti-infantry units.

It's nothing to do with discard and upgrade and everything to do with stripping your enemy of advantages. Using units in concert.

The problem is that DE have 2 types of weapons (Darklight and poison), and mediocre melee to back that up, so that severely limits their ability to flexibly build for their opposition.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:32

but the poison weapons should be key to destroying meta, granted in melee range its shut down almost but thats were the stacking comes in, multiple units focusing down each unit will dwindle any opposition. provided your not trying to kill a landraider with them out side of a "nothing left to shoot" scenerio
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:36

sheer volume of splinters will eliminate infantry you just need a handful of lance/haywire to deal with anything left over. and if they go mech heavy just tar pit with anything expendable. ive used units spread out just to chase flyers off the table same idea can be used to deny escape/moving from objectives.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:39

@forest90 wrote:
but the poison weapons should be key to destroying meta,  granted in melee range its shut down almost but thats were the stacking comes in, multiple units focusing down each unit will dwindle any opposition. provided your not trying to kill a landraider with them out side of a "nothing left to shoot" scenerio

Poison weapons are mechanically inferior to S 4 in the current meta. I cannot remember who did the charts, but basically since they are worse vs T3 (very common) and vehicles (very common), the same vs T4 (common), and only better vs T5+ non-vehicles (uncommon, and often have multiple wounds and a good save thus making Darklight a better counter), our army would be better if you simply swap out the splinter rifles with boltguns.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:40

The meta is hordes of Conscripts.

Against Conscripts, poison weapons are the equivalent of Lasguns, the same weapons that Conscripts are armed with. The cheapest unit we can take, Kabalite Warriors, are nearly twice as expensive as Conscripts, and don't benefit from any of the auras and orders that Conscripts have access to.

That's the crux of the problem. We deal less damage and cost more than cheap hordes. Poison weaponry is one of the causes of this, not the solution.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:41

@forest90 wrote:
sheer volume of splinters will eliminate infantry you just need a handful of lance/haywire to deal with anything left over.  and if they go mech heavy just tar pit with anything expendable. ive used units spread out just to chase flyers off the table  same idea can be used to deny escape/moving from  objectives.

The problem is that we cannot bring enough quantity to make that viable. Guardsmen are half our price and can shoot twice per turn. If Splinter Racks were still a thing then quantity would be less of an issue, but as is we simply cannot compete on a scale of economy.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:02

melee isnt a strong point but why not try wyches? you can shoot in combat now giving them a free round of killing conscripts dont have.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:08

@forest90 wrote:
melee isnt a strong point but why not try wyches? you can shoot in combat now giving them a free round of killing conscripts dont have.

Numbers. even without factoring in overwatch, conscripts outnumber wyches 3-1 for the same points meaning they have more attacks and more bodies. They can simply wear the wyches down through sheer weight of numbers. And that is without factoring in once again that orders can give them extra melee buffs or let them fall back and shoot, provided our no-escape rule dosn't kick in (50% chance). If the conscripts have a commissar nearby (they will), they are functionally immune to morale. Even with their lousy weapon skill they are a serious threat to wyches due to sheer weight of numbers.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:19

so negative, even with combat drugs a handful of wyches should dwindle the efficiency of the blob. objective isnt to kill the entire unit but too bring them under a manageable size for the 2nd wave or combo assault with a 2nd unit. as long as you can get enough
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:27

seriusly they have 4 up in combat, and buffed T they wont be going down easy as long as you can get them into combat. granted going up against a SM body (heaven forbid terminators) they will be less effective but you wont lose the entire unit in one volley even with over watch
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:28

@forest90 wrote:
so negative, even with combat drugs a handful of wyches should dwindle the efficiency of the blob.  objective isnt to kill the entire unit but too bring them under a manageable size for the 2nd wave or combo assault with a 2nd unit.  as long as you can get enough

Just quickly.

50 man conscript blob. 100 overwatch shots. Hitting on 6's, wounding on 4's. around 16 hit. 8 wounds. that means that of your 10 man wych squad 6 are dead before they even reach the conscripts. 4 Wyches vs 50 conscripts, even if they all have Wych weapons and the squad leader has an agonizer, are not going to cripple a squad of conscripts before getting beaten to a pulp through weight of numbers. You lose, lets say 2 to the conscripts, then 2 in the morale phase and you have lost a squad for, at best, 13 kills assuming all attack kill. 100+ points of wyches for under 40 points of conscripts is not a viable trade.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:32

take into the drugs, extra T ideal, FNP, and you wouldnt be facing a full squad, should be dwindled a portion in shooting. and personaly i prefer to double up with units if i am out numberd
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:39

@forest90 wrote:
take into the drugs, extra T ideal, FNP, and you wouldnt be facing a full squad, should be dwindled a portion in shooting. and personaly i prefer to double up with units if i am out numberd

I was assuming +1 attack drugs on the wyches (+50% damage).

Here's the thing. if you want to have Wychs finishing off weaker squads that's fine, but the problem is that odds on the IG player has been shooting back at you and he has a lot of shots to spare. Those 50 Conscripts? 150 points. 4 blobs of them hanging around together can put down an absurd amount of shots with orders, close on 800 if in rapid fire range. We simply cannot thin them out with shooting fast enough to be cost effective about it, and as you saw our melee isn't able to handle anti-infantry well either.

Once you start using stuff like Reavers to soak overwatch then you're putting a lot of resources into destroying a relatively small investment of his, while his heavy weapons and tanks are unmolested. Blob squads are considered our bane for a reason.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:50

im playing around 1k games, small enough for new players but enough to try interesting things without retarded comps. most i ever seen was 2x full conscript with 2x commisar and he had a couple tanks and a leviathan.

same strat i do with my bugs is hunker them in one corner while his guys are spread out, and since he doesnt want his commisars to be open he bubble wraps his blobs, on objectives when able. should be able to dedicate 2 raiders full of wyches and get them into charging range turn one itself focus the fire power of everything onto that one unit (excluding the lances for mech)and you should be able to cut a 3rd of that unit down if not half before even charging, and again my preference for the toughness, overwatch shouldnt be able to kill more then 25% unless they roll straight 6's. and once in combat charge gives first attack letting you further dwindle just about 1attack : 1model. especialy if your bringing a succubus/lillith for re-rolls. leaving that blob to about 10-20 Vs 2-3 squads of 8
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:51

the conscript blob may not be the bulk of their points investment but it is the bulk of their fire power, quanity wise.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 02:53

If we assume that a raider + 10 warriors is about 200 points, then in a 2,000 points of game you can get 10 such squads. assuming rapid fire every round, you are looking at 200 shots per turn. Vs Conscripts, you are killing around 45 per turn. AKA 1 squad after morale

For the same points the guard player can put out around 650 guardsmen, or 13 squads.

So assuming we rapid fire every turn and the guardsmen don't shoot back, it takes us 13 turns to wipe out the enemy.

Seeing the problem here?
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 03:07

if your trying to out right kill them yes, objective is just to deny. get them in combat and just a touch of extra survivability is more hen enough,

homunculus venom spam may counter, needing 6's to wound plus difficulty to actuly hit it ontop of a decent save, toss in fodder of wrack with liquifiers, it'll melt and protect at he same time, and you can get a much meaty unit into charge range on top of more splinter fire. that i think is how the aura ability needs to be used, to deal with conscript. a raider may be more beneficial if "hover tank" stacks with "master of pain" but assuming theirs something that says it cant venoms would be able to fit more into the hosts bubble(s)
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 03:11

and if you can take a couple raiders, tie up the conscripts and charge commisar with the boats, shock prow is essentialy a sniper weapon of over sized design.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 05:50

I suggest you look on this forum, as many threads have been discussed about the conscript problem for Dark Eldar, and the suggestions you are making have all been debunked.
- Poison is the a more expensive lasgun against conscripts
- You can't charge a commissar with a boat if your enemy has more than 1 neural connexion...
- Conscripts destroy venoms faster than venoms destroy conscripts. Yes, even with hard to hit.
- Wyches get destroyed by conscripts at lightning speed.
- etc, etc.

It isn't about being negative, lacking imagination or being "tacticaly limited". Conscripts are currently broken. We have an army that has no weapon designed to handle T3 (except the shredder, but it's a misdesigned one). That's it.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Mon Sep 25 2017, 08:38

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Conscripts are currently broken.

And this is actually due to 8th edition making hordes of cheap, weak units very difficult to deal with. We were able to take advantage of this for a while with Razorwing Flocks, although they've since been nerfed in an FAQ.
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