HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 starting fresh

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
AuthorMessage
Burnage
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 147
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 08:48

There isn't really a good reason as to why our synergy is so limited in game. 8th edition is all about aura abilities increasing the effectiveness of units, and yet we're hamstrung not only by our available auras being mediocre but also by most of those auras only applying to a third of the army.
Back to top Go down
Lord Nakariial
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 134
Join date : 2017-09-18
Location : Australia, Second Deadliest Place in the Galaxy

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 09:03

Our utility comes from non playable factors. FnP is a utility, creating a Yvraine/Ynnari build or using the Aeldari keyword is a utility...just nothing we can do on the board as an independent faction.

Does it hurt, yes, but it also makes people underestimate us and it allows for some strong gameplay when you learn to synergise. To be fair, GW can punish any faction they like, it's their game and its our fault for choosing an unloved faction. But I like a challenge so lets make the most of it and prove what we can do Wink

_________________
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 09:38

Quote :
FnP is a utility
Tankiness is not utility.

Quote :
using the Aeldari keyword is a utility
Being able to chose your units is not a utility. It provides you access to units that have utility, but the fact that we have to cross-faction to access them is a flaw in itself.

Quote :
GW can punish any faction they like
Punishing for what ? They are not angry at DE, they just don't care enough to put more than 30 minutes of rule-designing in our index.

Quote :
it allows for some strong gameplay when you learn to synergise
DE have access to no more synergy than other factions. They have less. So the synergy you can pull off with DE, you can pull it with any army.
Quote :

But I like a challenge so lets make the most of it and prove what we can do
Then go play a tourney and tell us how you feel about playing an army that has no way of dealing with the current meta.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 16:42

@FuelDrop wrote:
I see. You believe that I, who have been playing DE for 3 editions and have a solid win-loss ratio throughout that time despite some crushing low points for our army, am unable to use the units effectively?

This is a fascinating theory. Please elaborate, I want to hear what brings you to that conclusion.

I meant no insult, just trying understand the thought process and how you pick what to play. never said you didn't know how to play or wasn't a valid tactician. i was just getting the impression what losses you do have came from the same denomination, casual or competitive.



Utility> utility in essence can take different forms. My particular perspective is units that can specialize or be geared out in a way to deal with multiple situations. I refer to scourge because they have mobility and access to anti-infanty(splinter cannons) and anti-mech (darklance/heat lance) weapons with minimal requirements. you can also specialize them with half and half in a single unit. again coming form a tyranid perspective factors like FnP, healing, shields my army has non of these or are limited to a couple expensive units with situations that are un-reasonable to use them.

"BURNAGE" is correct that the current meta/8th edition is almost entirely aura based games, but that in turn could be a tool. Alot of the homunculi guns do have what are essentially Sniper rules that allow you to target and kill specific characters even if their bubble wrapped. and since alot of armies using auras rely heavy on said auras picking off key characters are easy points and effective blows.


Synergy> can still be had within the army no matter what build you take but trying to take a archon for cheap points and homunculi troops offer no real benefit to each other then filling slots. you could take a squad as kind of a body guard style with a succubus for little more melee synergy. but ultimately taking homunculi with wrack may only offer a +1T but they will synergize more. when considering play style wise, kabal shooting from a raider can compliment a horde of wyches or even wracks but the foot slogging units usually have difficultly contributing without taking additional transports or dividing the body mass they often loose some of their efficiency.
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 16:49

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Then go play a tourney and tell us how you feel about playing an army that has no way of dealing with the current meta.

this is the very reason Im trying to challenge the current linear thinking and maybe bring back some of the passion. as mentioned taking succubus and a swarm of raiders/venoms just for the re-reoll aura can be rather effective, or even homunculi to the toughness to add to their durability.
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 17:11

One thing i can say as a overall is when it comes to playing one game and the meta shifts in a particular direction Players will always see what other armies have and its always better then what i have. "grass is always greener" situation, and this is more so with veteran players, and applies to any game including Magic the gathering, warhammer 40k, yugioh, World of warcraft, Halo, ect. any game people can customize in any form for a competitive lead. Playing all of the above i could never keep up or get access to the competitive meta, no matter how much i mimic or try to use the current methodology. this is why i learned to adapt and evolve what i had to counter the meta. W.O.W i play tank specs in PVP because the meta is almost always who unloads first wins. i play the tank because i can eat the burst from several players and still dish out decent damage. I win because the meta has no counter for something that can survive burst damage and ill just whittle their health to zero.
in MTG :modern format: the meta was/is limited to artifact/infect affinity, so i started playing cards that take/destroy artifacts. 40k tyranids, i dont have access to any form of aura abilities without taking redundant list (exp 7x carnifex + 1 old one eye) which just crimps any actual play. but i been utilizing units that can sniper( or in tyranids case bomb) target aura generators and l paying what is essentially anti meta.

DE may not get much love from GW but neither do my bugs and looking at what i play and whats in the index i know their are still options, we just have to be more creative and try something different.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 17:16

Quote :
Alot of the homunculi guns do have what are essentially Sniper rules that allow you to target and kill specific characters even if their bubble wrapped.
There is one. It's a standard sniper, with AP-1. You have to pay almost 70pts to get 2. Go try it, and you'll see how efficient it is at dealing with hidden HQs.

Quote :
this is the very reason Im trying to challenge the current linear thinking and maybe bring back some of the passion
Trust me, the passion is still there (why else in the world would we spend time on this forum ?). But we have the common sense to recognize flaws of game design when we see them. And they have been apparent in the DE codices throughout the years (although it started to become a little better).

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 147
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 17:26

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Alot of the homunculi guns do have what are essentially Sniper rules that allow you to target and kill specific characters even if their bubble wrapped.
There is one. It's a standard sniper, with AP-1. You have to pay almost 70pts to get 2. Go try it, and you'll see how efficient it is at dealing with hidden HQs.

It's worse than that, isn't it? I thought it was nearly 70 points just to get one... and the rest of the unit will only be equipped with melee weapons.

Compare that to Eldar Rangers, who come with five sniper rifles for 100 points. They're technically an option for us, but I think there's something wrong when the answer to "How do Dark Eldar deal with hordes?" is "Play something other than Dark Eldar."
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 17:44

@Burnage wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Alot of the homunculi guns do have what are essentially Sniper rules that allow you to target and kill specific characters even if their bubble wrapped.
There is one. It's a standard sniper, with AP-1. You have to pay almost 70pts to get 2. Go try it, and you'll see how efficient it is at dealing with hidden HQs.

It's worse than that, isn't it? I thought it was nearly 70 points just to get one... and the rest of the unit will only be equipped with melee weapons.

Compare that to Eldar Rangers, who come with five sniper rifles for 100 points. They're technically an option for us, but I think there's something wrong when the answer to "How do Dark Eldar deal with hordes?" is "Play something other than Dark Eldar."


and their is my point, possible the issue and solution. if you want to stay dedicated DE then 5 wracks in venoms offer several units with snipers and a barrage of splinter for their fodder all in the same move and all you need is to make a opening to get into melee with your remaining wracks cause they are decent even against characters. though you would want to soften the target first. if you want a more hardcore list you can take rangers and a fodder of kabalites giving you ideal snipers and fodder control.

ofcourse its going to be a situational and dependent on how good you can roll. but their is always options. maybe take 2 units one to soak the fodder because they have to consolidate in, and the 2nd to swing from a raider into the characters back. one thing DE have is mobility, i dont beleive any army can out maneuver our raiders, ravagers, and venoms.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 17:52

Here's what i suggest : try it, and share your experience.
Mine dictates me that Hexrifles are to be avoided, but i can understand that some might think differently.

Quote :
if you want a more hardcore list you can take rangers and a fodder of kabalites
That's the point. If i must go Aeldari to achieve "hard-core lists" (which i call : competitive lists), then Dark Eldar are poorly designed.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 147
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:02

@forest90 wrote:
one thing DE have is mobility, i dont beleive any army can out maneuver  our raiders, ravagers, and venoms.

I'm not sure we're even the most mobile Eldar army any more, let alone the most mobile army in the game - Raiders and Ravagers have 2 inches less movement than Fire Prisms and Wave Serpents, for instance.

Also; I don't want to deny that we do have options available to us for certain situations. Yes, taking Hexrifles in units of Wracks in Venoms is an option to counter enemy characters. I just think it's a bad option.
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:03

In the end i think i found what i was looking for even though its rather dull, but i just feel the creativity has lost something. so much good weapons, ideal stats for their roles, maybe the most OP transport and even anti-psychic auras which is big against certain competitive builds IE chaos sorcerer spam.
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:06

mobile as in open top and still long distance, wave serpents are transports but i dont think it can actually be shot out of least not without penalty. but raiders you can load with special weapons units and shoot freely while still using its own guns.
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:18

what about reaver bikes? has anyone been playing with them? just reading a bit and they seem to have the best traits of my carnifex, ravaners, and still access to drugs and PFP. not to mention i think they are the fastest jet bikes (when advancing), and able to equip for multiple situations. heaven forbid you take 3+ full units. the grav-talons alone would deal with smaller/already damaged units
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:25

@forest90 wrote:
what about reaver bikes? has anyone been playing with them?
Yes. The common consensus is that they suck. Probably the biggest deception of 8th edition for DE.

Quote :
they seem to have the best traits of my carnifex

By best traits, you mean the T7 W8 3+ profile ? The 4 S12 AP -3 D3 attacks ? Those units have literaly nothing in common, except the mortal wound gadget.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 147
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:32

Three full units of Reavers is 1080 points for the same firepower as 252 points of Kabalites. They are very expensive for what they bring to the table (which, bluntly, isn't much).
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:34

@Burnage wrote:
Three full units of Reavers is 1080 points for the same firepower as 252 points of Kabalites. They are very expensive for what they bring to the table (which, bluntly, isn't much).
Those numbers are quite shocking indeed. Thanks for running them Surprised

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 147
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:43

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Three full units of Reavers is 1080 points for the same firepower as 252 points of Kabalites. They are very expensive for what they bring to the table (which, bluntly, isn't much).
Those numbers are quite shocking indeed. Thanks for running them Surprised

The really shocking part is that you can stick all of the Kabalites in Raiders and they're still a good 300 points cheaper than the Reavers. Even with eight double Splinter Cannon Venoms the Kabalites cost less!
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:49

its the speed and charge mechanic i was referance too, mortal wounds are the only thing that seem to be universally leathel. my ravaners are fast i can get them into combat turn 1 and sometimes get a first blood+. carnifex charge ability will do more mortal wounds then any weapon, simply because the way it works only FNP can counter it. granted its expensive to run but functionally 3x mortal wounds just hurts anything and no way to shield.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 18:55

@forest90 wrote:
its the speed and charge mechanic i was referance too, mortal wounds are the only thing that seem to be universally leathel. my ravaners are fast i can get them into combat turn 1 and sometimes get a first blood+. carnifex charge ability will do more mortal wounds then any weapon, simply because the way it works only FNP can counter it.  granted its expensive to run but functionally 3x mortal wounds just hurts anything and no way to shield.

Hum... the mortal wounds are just a tiny little icing detail. The real job is done by those S12 AP-3 D3 weapons. Having 50% to deal 1 MW is nowhere as good as those huge attacks.

Mortal wounds seem good, but man, have you seen the amount of wounds things have in this edition ?
If you wanted to kill a single Carnifex by dealing mortal wounds to it with Reavers, you would need 48 reavers charging it. Not kidding. That's more or less 1500pts to kill a fex...

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Wych
avatar

Posts : 897
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 19:03

Dark Eldar have a couple of good points. Mobile AV weapons, Darklight, good transports, Ravagers and incubi. Maybe the fliers.

Outside of that fairly narrow list our stuff tends to be underwhelming at best. There is little synergy between units (only two units can really take advantage of our transports fully for instance), our HQ options are some of the worst in the game.

While we can make 'good' lists (darklight spam for instance), that generally involves spamming a small selection of units and, while it's great at its job, it isn't fantastic against the current meta.

Dark Eldar are an army that, due to poor design, has a very strict hierarchy of our special weapons where four of our guns (Heat lance, HW Blaster, Blaster, DLance) fill the exact same role and point for point one option is simply better than the other in a specific order. Our anti-horde options do not bring to the table anti-horde capability and in the case of the splinter cannon is massively overpriced for what it does.


DE can make powerful lists, and with the right detachment options can create an army where literally every single gun is S8 AP -4 dealing multiple wounds, while still being highly mobile. However, having one or two good builds does not a good codex make, as has been demonstrated throughout the editions.

_________________
My homebrew codex is really coming along. Check it out here, and feel free to post a comment!
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 19:16

i think what im having issue figuring out, is literaly everyone meta except mine all mechs? i deal with horde of ork boyz, conscript spam, plague marines, maybe an occasional 2x dread naught and tank. the poison factor alone tips in DE favor. the best and only ways to deal with with crazy characters is sheer quanity and mortal wounds. and no other army has surplus of 2+ wound weapons.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1182
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 19:21

@forest90 wrote:
i think what im having issue figuring out, is literaly everyone meta except mine all mechs?  i deal with horde of ork boyz, conscript spam, plague marines, maybe an occasional 2x dread naught and tank.  the poison factor alone tips in DE favor. the best and only ways to deal with with crazy characters is sheer quanity and mortal wounds.  and no other army has surplus of 2+ wound weapons.

Splinter wounds on 4+. That's the very reason why DE are not meta : we wound conscripts on 4+.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 19:30

granted its not ideal, but considering conscripts would be a 4+ anyway, anything bigger is on equal grounds
Back to top Go down
forest90
Hellion


Posts : 89
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : stony creek, NY usa

PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 19:33

im coming from a differnt perspective, tyrinds wound on a conscript with 4+ also but atleast you have double tap and ranged advantage plus saves. my bugs dont just 4+ that usualy fails to even hit then anotehr 4+ that just gets shrugged off
Back to top Go down
 
starting fresh
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 4Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DARK ELDAR DISCUSSION

 :: Dark Eldar Discussion
-
Jump to: