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forest90
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PostSubject: starting fresh   Sat Sep 16 2017, 18:00

I used to play some Dark Eldar back in 6th edition, stepped away in late 6th with the removal of Asdrubel Vect, he was my fluffy.

What i ran was mostly starter pieces, a handful of whyche's and kabalite's i would alternate with their elite counter parts. Bulk of the army was ravagers/raiders and bike riders. In short was a gladiator based build. i also had a touch of cronos/talos engines which were really fun. Now i Primarly Play tyranids (over 9k worth and growing) but have been interested in starting a new army, preferably a bit smaller to carry around. At least for a little while. I guess what im here and trying to ask is with the 8th edition and looking to consider a Haemonculus based army. are they a solid choice against current meta and roughly what are the go too units currently.

I will probaly just pick up units i like and just try to exploit them but since the local tournment scene does offer store credit it would be nice to have at least a solid core to reinvest the winnings to grow the army.

the reason for haemunculus is their high toughness and decent arsenal. but eh final decider was the Haemonculus +toughness and if im not mistaken it should stack with a urien Rakarth's +toughness making alot of High T beaters. i dont have a index to confirm but using youtube and such to get bits of information. looking for around 1k pts to start with, expecting raider/venom spam to still be a thing.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 16 2017, 21:43

Coven are not in a great position right now.
While the Haemy is the best HQ around, and Wracks with T5 are awesome sauce, a huge problem comes from the "Hard hitters". I can see Chronoi having some success as a buff provider for wracks (wounding on 4+ rerolling 1's is nothing to scoff at), but Taloi and Grotesques are NOT doing their jobs.

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 17 2017, 00:19

I think if the core of your army is built with tried, tested and true units you'll do well even if you decide that you want to dedicate 10-30% of your army to less popular choices like Coven units.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 17 2017, 00:22

Oh, btw, Urien Rakarth and other Haemonculi don't stack their Auras. It's +1 T MAX.

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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 17 2017, 19:07

Let me know how the wracks and haemy work for you.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 14:58

just picked up the index and playing with battle scribe building. I did just post a $$ cheap 1k list to get some feed backs, but looking through the book it almost seems mandatory to play a hybrid army. something like 3xdeath jesters in a venom or combine 10x wraithguards (craftworld eldar) in a raider(drukhari) and lead with one if not all 3 yannari HQ. And may I add 10x WG in a raiders does sound nasty with D-scythe. thats alot of fire power and what is essentially a monsters/walkers squad getting in charge distance turn 1.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:06

You can't put units from one list in a transport from another. Craftworld units only go in Craftworld transports, etc.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:25

typicaly yes, but if you build under the yannari army, all 4 eldars gain the yannari keyword and inturn infantry can use vehicles form another army, provided its still eldar and fit pg 76, "Ynneads will"
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:27

@forest90 wrote:
typicaly yes, but if you build under the yannari army, all 4 eldars gain the yannari keyword and inturn infantry can use vehicles form another army, provided its still eldar and fit  pg 76, "Ynneads will"

Didn't they Errata that out?
Pretty sure I heard somewhere it got changed to only the Yannari characters being able to use any transport.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:33

you are correct on that, I forget to look into the errata. however said WG can still benefit from "strength form death" and gain a 2nd movement/combat/ect
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:34

It's not been FAQed, it's the same as in the Index. Ynnead's Will is an ability that allows the model to board any Aeldari transport, but the only models that have that ability are Yvraine and The Visarch. Normal Ynnari infantry don't have it.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 15:38

this makes me wonder though if the next codex will be like one of the SM from 7th, and several in one with Fluff based builds
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sat Sep 23 2017, 19:04

how is Drazahar and incubi looking for meta? deffinetly more damage and attacks going to targets and bit more utility against mechs?
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Lord Nakariial
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 00:24

Lol I asked about Drazhar the other day...the answer is don't do it...ever! He is just not worth the points sink. Incubi on the other hand are pretty good so you can run those, just without their inglorious leader

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 00:37

Lord Nakariial is right on incubi being badasses. And on Drazhar being terribad.

for 140 points you are getting, basically, a space marine captain in artificer armor and a slightly better power sword, but with a worse invulnerable, a worse aura, a low chance of generating extra attack, no options at all, and I think one less wound too (not certain but don't SM captains have 6 wounds?).

When you compare him to characters like Kharn the betrayer (who is in the same general pricerange, I think he's around 160 points) who gets something like 14 strength 7 ap -3 d3 damage attacks on the charge then 12/turn locked in combat, and gets extra attacks and strength every character or monster he kills, plus has a suped up plasma pistol, 6 wounds, 3+/4++, and an actually useful if very short range aura by giving beserker units in 1" reroll all failed hits, you look at Drazhar and shake your head sadly.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 02:44

thats kind of a flawed logic by comparing granted its how you weight the strengths and weakness of something, but of course kharn is out right better with to many demon special rules that  dont apply to the actual rules, but i can still see his flaws. i figured he would be  nice buffer  instead of a killing machine. incubi on paper seemed like a death band and even a small buffing is big to something already lethal. i play mostly tyranids and using comparison to a DeathLeaper all the great abillites and stats but in play he is near  garbage unless you use him slightly out of intent.   DLs abilities make him select a character and able to appear and assault turn 1 that character and he has more then enough fire power to succeed, but because your opponents know what and how he functions they typically deny his function directly and just bubble wrap.  so using lore inspiration i started using DL to kill off lesser units like a sniper team or even over extended units while the selected target is bubble wrapped so tight  they spend a turn or two trying to re-arrange  their bubble wrap.  it in essence takes a  couple units from the initial fight letting my guys overwhelm everything just out of their leaders range.  

granted you cant use the same strategy with draz but maby he has potential as a counter-assault unit literally  using  the incubi to encircle him and after they charge or get charged he can clean up while always applying his aura.  atleast thats the idea, probaly best paired with lilleth and wyches doing the same strat and only reason for characters over their generic counter parts is it adds more bait and the two character double teaming enemy characters  should be over powered


:edit:  just to add to draza, since he and his incubi dont have any association with the other durakahi  maybe using him as a yannari, in combination with Yvraine, the soul burst rule as well tagging along with a 2nd melee specialist (the visarch) if able can be a very nasty offense, my favorite, 2nd combat  per turn from her psychic phase for any of them.
 kind of makes a death start build but trying to think out side the box and get ideas stacking his incubi buff alone with her psychics just seems OP even if its just 1 pt difference the two can virtually replace one another depending what your situation  requires,  drac is better for fodder(conscritps) and visarch more mech/Monster


Last edited by forest90 on Sun Sep 24 2017, 03:18; edited 1 time in total
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 03:14

@forest90 wrote:
thats kind of a flawed logic by comparing granted its how you weight the strengths and weakness of something, but of course kharn is out right better with to many demon special rules that  dont apply to the actual rules, but i can still see his flaws. i figured he would be  nice buffer  instead of a killing machine. incubi on paper seemed like a death band and even a small buffing is big to something already lethal. i play mostly tyranids and using comparison to a DeathLeaper all the great abillites and stats but in play he is near  garbage unless you use him slightly out of intent.   DLs abilities make him select a character and able to appear and assault turn 1 that character and he has more then enough fire power to succeed, but because your opponents know what and how he functions they typically deny his function directly and just bubble wrap.  so using lore inspiration i started using DL to kill off lesser units like a sniper team or even over extended units while the selected target is bubble wrapped so tight  they spend a turn or two trying to re-arrange  their bubble wrap.  it in essence takes a  couple units from the initial fight letting my guys overwhelm everything just out of their leaders range.  

granted you cant use the same strategy with draz but maby he has potential as a counter-assault unit literally  using  the incubi to encircle him and after they charge or get charged he can clean up while always applying his aura.  atleast thats the idea, probaly best paired with lilleth and wyches doing the same strat and only reason for characters over their generic counter parts is it adds more bait and the two character double teaming enemy characters  should be over powered

The problem is that Draz has considerably less killing power than a small squad of incubi, and his buff is all but worthless. Lilleth is pathetically weak for 125 points, and improving the to-hit of wyches isn't exactly doing much with their S 3.

The reason I do the comparrison between Kharn and Draz is that the two are fairly close in points, both buff a single elite melee unit that they are an exemplar of, and and one is HILARIOUSLY better than the other. Offensively, Draz has less attacks that are weaker and do less damage. Defensively, Draz has 1 point better armour and PFP but worse invul and wounds. Buff wise, Draz's buff has a larger area but becomes completely redundant by turn 3.

In other words the two characters roles and points are similar enough for the comparison to hold up, yet Draz is spectacularly worse offensively, defensively, and in utility. It is not even close.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 03:33

im not dissagreeing with you its just trying to compaire anything to kharn will never match up, hes just retarded OP but as for performance it could be a specialty list, like my edit for instance. conrtibuting him and his incubi into a yannari build rather then a drukhari. Just trying to find what would make him usefull or scenerio were he can earn his points and use that instead of just saying this is the OP list right now and nothing will ever match up. My local meta is not the same as he hardcore meta were you only find 3 army variants and out of a thousand player 86 of them are playing the exact same list because they only run the most OP units in game.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 03:54

@forest90 wrote:
im not dissagreeing with you its just trying to compaire anything to kharn will never match up, hes just retarded OP but as for performance it could be a specialty list, like my edit for instance. conrtibuting him and his incubi into a yannari build rather then a drukhari. Just trying to find what would make him usefull or scenerio were he can earn his points and use that instead of just saying this is the OP list right now and nothing will ever match up.  My local meta is not the same as he hardcore meta were you only find 3 army variants and out of a thousand player 86 of them are playing the exact same list because they only run the most OP units in game.

The problem is that Kharn is just an extreme example, but compare Draz to the phoenix lords and you see a marked difference despite fairly low points differences in some cases (Jain Zar). Stuff like having one less wound than phoenix lords for no obvious reason, for instance.

Now I know that Jain Zar is a pretty damn good HQ, and it might not be fair to hold her up as a comparison... but if we say that about every assault named character in that general price range then it becomes more or less meaningless to have comparisons.

Our army has to be balanced not just within its own codex (which it isnt, hence the spam lists), but it also needs to be balanced against other armies as well as possible. A duel between two characters of about equal points in a shared specialty should be a close-fought thing, that could go either way and where strategy is vital, not laughably one-sided like Kharn vs Draz (where assuming Draz gets the charge without being wounded at all and hits and wounds with every attack... Kharn is probably still going to win by a large margin).

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 04:12

correct, and that is why Im trying to be more open, if hes going to lose that particular combat then should the scenerio arise im putting draz and what ever incubi remain in a transport and keeping distance for a while. But that is part of the game, if they invest many points or take something over powered you as the player have to know how to respond and in turn how do you still utilize what you have while avoiding said combat. were stuck on draz cause he was the mentioned but this is true for any model/unit Old one eye from my tyranids is probaly my most over powered and yet one of my most vulnerable models. i often take him with swarm lord using his abillites to relocate OOE into more favorable fight and SL who does virtually nothing may act as a clean up unit for anything that isnt dead. (side note OOE is able to kill swarms and lords of war with the same difficulty at the same 140pt while SL is 300) just because a model may or may not be worth his points i for instance take a model that is more then double just as a movement buff. and that in turn makes/made OOE change form HQ that gets shot down before he does anything into a slaughter machine that has more kills in every match then any squad of genestealers i have ever brought.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 04:24

You raise good points. Poor formatting, but good points.

The problem across the board for DE HQ units is that they bring little to the table, with almost universally bad buffs, plus low killing power for their points. Not inherently bad if they fill a niche other units don't but that is where we run into the main problem: They don't bring anything to the table that cannot be done cheaper and better with other troop options in the same army.

Really, the only thing that most of our HQs can say they do better than the rest of our army is having better saves. but a small unit of Incubi is better than Draz except for a 3+ save instead of 2+. A melee archon is likewise outclassed by Incubi, though not to the same extreme due to the lower cost of the model, while a ranged archon is outclassed by trueborn.

There is a reason DE players call it a HQ tax rather than a compulsory HQ: by any objective standard, our points are better spent elsewhere. We can make use of our HQs, be it as decoys or with clever maneuvering to put them into a winnable situation, but rarely will you find a situation that they can be put in where they excel in such a way that they are a superior choice.

That is my problem with our HQs. Squandered potential.






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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 05:00

i could say the same thing for tyranids cheapest HQ i have available is 120 base( 90 if i strip it of any weapons) and its absolute garbage even with decked out. all my other options are 200-500pts just to put them on the table and although they have decent killing power other armies always have some kind of gimmick that makes it pointless. but i found the synergy between SL and OOE, dedicating just under 500pts for them alone they more then make up for it. but its still only 2 models on the table and my opponents know they are point sink as well lynch pins in every way. so i built upon them with units that could compliment their carnage and still supply threats of their own if i needed something to sacrifice. not every model in the game has that kind of utility but the synergy is what makes it work, i found harpies and ravaners to be my best compliments and i have gone as far to take the bare minimum troops (33pts of rippers) just to fill the "taxes" i had to fill. but if you can swap that tax for even a small buff and synergize some were its more then worth it.

trying to comeback to DE units, scourge i believe are the best utility unit, able to take 3x units they have mobility and can be decked for anti mech or anti swarm. if your trying to focus more on utility and expendability go half and half , with up to 5x special weapons even 5x man groups can be devistation. the issue with them is the units they synergize with most, in my view, would be jet bikes, ravagers, and even hellions. non of which have any real synergy with our HQs or share slots.

dipping back into the yannari concept scourge would compliment Yvarine, should one unit die one of the remaining should be able to make a free volley with their special weapons or escape with extra movements. and putting lillith inside of a raider also offers some of the same utility and the vehicles benefit from her abilities. meaning ravagers/raiders with re-rolls may be something to look into. not going to be a very flashy army but a few bare minimum units for mandatory slots and filling your army with nothing but transports with all the special weapons you could need. And the synergy of making lillith into a pirate fleet captain is rather fetching.

i think the issue your having isnt with your options but how you go about selecting them. granted i remember asdrubel vect being the worst unit to take but would dominate anytime he made face. it seems like you see one army do one thing and your trying to mimic said army with units that just dont have the same details. some times Lore and fluff is way to go for insperation. Kabalite warriors can work in the same fashion of tau fire warriors but the results will be under par, if you go head to head, but if you think like the pirates they should be ram the raider into their ranks and cut their escape. a few failed moral test and barrage of splinter spam even under sized units can out play what they lack.


{side note, darz can not be taken as yannari but incubi can.}
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 05:19

another thing to note is DE dont really have much synergy out side their "tribal", wyches are great melee, kabal are shooty, homunculi are durable. but trying to make a hybrid list to balance every task leaves you lacking in all areas. best case would be homunculi coven and kabal since homunculi do have accsess to a variety of weapons and kabal access to the most powerful weapons you could synergize some. but the best I can find is the vehicles the one unit that can benefit from every HQ aura (not stacking afraid) and still supply their own utility for any scenerios
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 06:17

Quote :
i think the issue your having isnt with your options but how you go about selecting them. granted i remember asdrubel vect being the worst unit to take but would dominate anytime he made face. it seems like you see one army do one thing and your trying to mimic said army with units that just dont have the same details. some times Lore and fluff is way to go for insperation. Kabalite warriors can work in the same fashion of tau fire warriors but the results will be under par, if you go head to head, but if you think like the pirates they should be ram the raider into their ranks and cut their escape. a few failed moral test and barrage of splinter spam even under sized units can out play what they lack.


I see. You believe that I, who have been playing DE for 3 editions and have a solid win-loss ratio throughout that time despite some crushing low points for our army, am unable to use the units effectively?

This is a fascinating theory. Please elaborate, I want to hear what brings you to that conclusion.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: starting fresh   Sun Sep 24 2017, 10:48

Quote :
scourge i believe are the best utility unit
Scourges have no utility.
They have mobility, and they have offensive powers. That's not utility.
Utility (which is something we seriously lack in this army) lies in abilities that help you do anything else than killing.
They used to have utility back then when HWB was debuffing vehicles instead of just dealing wounds, but now they lost all their utility.



- Healing is utility
- Shielding/protecting allies is utility
- "No retreat" is utility
- PGL can be considered utility in some extent
- The Chronos has utility

- FORCE MULTIPLYING is the best utility. You know, the kinda stuff that Necrons, CW or ... everyone else gets. The idea that 1+1 > 2. DE doesn't have any (serious), and it hurts.

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