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 Letter to GW about our wishes and requests

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What unit should we mention ?
- Special HQs
12%
 12% [ 43 ]
- Better regular HQs
19%
 19% [ 68 ]
- Reavers
12%
 12% [ 43 ]
- Hellions
7%
 7% [ 25 ]
- Wyches
9%
 9% [ 34 ]
- Poison weapons
9%
 9% [ 33 ]
- Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters
17%
 17% [ 61 ]
- Pain Engines and grotesques
14%
 14% [ 53 ]
- Other units (please state in thread)
1%
 1% [ 7 ]
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 11:12

Most likely gonna be an equivalent to the special CW engines, so advance 2d6. Which would still be very good for a ravager (or a cc-transport raider), since you still can shoot assault weaponry on BS4+. Useless for gunboats and venoms, though.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 11:36

I think the problem is that while we are 2" faster effective speed than last edition (12" to 14") most armies can now move 12" and shoot at pretty solid efficiency, up from 6" last edition. As for raw transportation, a rhino used to be able to move 12" then flat out 6" for 18" total, while we could flat out up to double that, and as skimmers we could just ignore terrain.
This edition everyone more or less ignores terrain, and our extra 2" on most transports isn't impressing anyone.

We may have a slightly faster combat speed, but everyone else has caught up. I got into Dark Eldar for 3 things:
1) Insanely skilled and awesome custom HQs.
2) Badass Wyches.
3) Need for Speed.

I have not been having a great couple of editions.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 12:09

Hey, our vehicles are 'blisteringly fast' so take that back!!

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 13:19

To quote dawn of war:

"Our weapons are terror, dark lances and SPEEEEED!"
So, where is the terror and where is the speed?

My favorite tactic in 7th was exactly the same as FuelDrop - rapid redeployment to the enemies weak spot, concentrate from there. It just... doesn't really work in 8th.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 13:27

See, I think that our maneuverability is our real strength, usually represented by our speed. Through the editions, however, we've seen a slow decline. I'm doubtful our transports will get their Deep Strike back, I'm certain that we won't get the redeployment ability from 5th back.

It's just a little aggravating to see others just blatantly have the speed we were promised. A Taurox Prime and Raider should not be anywhere near as fast as one another.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 13:31

I just want WWP's back for "movement" tricks....

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 15:05

My biggest issue with "maneuverability" being one of our major strengths is the increase in the number of units with the ability to deep strike or - like the orks' weird boy - teleport an entire unit within 9" of an enemy unit.

Genestealer Cult have the potential to deploy 9" and still move (assuming a roll of a 5+).

I say this to demonstrate that, particularly for transports with a relatively low T value and an invul save that only works against ranged attacks, it is surprisingly easy in 8th edition to charge a raider or venom. Honestly, I would be more ok with this if the units inside the transport got to fire overwatch...but since that isn't the case, it really deflates the argument that Dark Eldar are maneuverable.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Tue Nov 07 2017, 22:49

Agreed, the whole argument that it would be OP if we could charge out of our transports is a load of hog wash.
If you look at the other armies, and I do mean most of them, they have a method of getting across the board and initiating an assault, on top of that, this is probably even on the first turn. Before the other side gets to react (or shoot!). Ie. the Orks have the teleport, which they then can reroll their charge after, or if only one die is bad spend a point on, so it isn't even unlikely they will make it. Gene stealers, alpha legion, etc. they each have a way.
In the light of this, how is our transport charge any different? Except we have to pay for a transport for each unit doing which decreases our assaulting units dramatically.

Plus it's fluffy as we are opportunistic hunters, we wear light armour and hit where it hurts.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Nov 08 2017, 04:14

@LordSplata wrote:
Agreed, the whole argument that it would be OP if we could charge out of our transports is a load of hog wash.

Plus it's fluffy as we are opportunistic hunters, we wear light armour and hit where it hurts.

Agreed. I believe this type of change would also lend itself to our lore...Dark Eldar turned their backs on the use of psychic powers and in lieu of that, honed their physical prowess.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Nov 08 2017, 07:31

@LordSplata wrote:
Agreed, the whole argument that it would be OP if we could charge out of our transports is a load of hog wash.
If you look at the other armies, and I do mean most of them, they have a method of getting across the board and initiating an assault, on top of that, this is probably even on the first turn. Before the other side gets to react (or shoot!). Ie. the Orks have the teleport, which they then can reroll their charge after, or if only one die is bad spend a point on, so it isn't even unlikely they will make it. Gene stealers, alpha legion, etc. they each have a way.
In the light of this, how is our transport charge any different? Except we have to pay for a transport for each unit doing which decreases our assaulting units dramatically.

Plus it's fluffy as we are opportunistic hunters, we wear light armour and hit where it hurts.

Orks still need to make the 9 inch charge and can only teleport 1 unit in competetive play.
Gene stealers have a unit which you pick on which table edge they deploy for eahc unit that can move after, and have a roughly 25% price increase because of it (looking at genestealers and purestrain genestealers/ IG and their human infantry) and like all deep strikers also a unit that cannot do it for each unit that can deep strike.

So would you be willing to make all transports cost 140-145 points and roll a dice each time, after disembarking on a 1 or a 2 you cannot charge anymore. This is roughly what the genestealer variant would be.

Or the ork variant, you get a webway portal for you archon and can deep strike a unit within 6" at the start of the turn and deep strike at the end of the movement phase.

I think the only unit right now that truly has the deployment after moving (actually during move) is the flyer from IG. And it is insanely good, even though a model dies on a 1 when dropping out.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Nov 08 2017, 07:32

@LordSplata wrote:
Agreed, the whole argument that it would be OP if we could charge out of our transports is a load of hog wash.
If you look at the other armies, and I do mean most of them, they have a method of getting across the board and initiating an assault, on top of that, this is probably even on the first turn. Before the other side gets to react (or shoot!). Ie. the Orks have the teleport, which they then can reroll their charge after, or if only one die is bad spend a point on, so it isn't even unlikely they will make it. Gene stealers, alpha legion, etc. they each have a way.
In the light of this, how is our transport charge any different? Except we have to pay for a transport for each unit doing which decreases our assaulting units dramatically.

Plus it's fluffy as we are opportunistic hunters, we wear light armour and hit where it hurts.


lol, Eldar has 2 units (Banshees and Shiny Spears) that can charge from like 45" away now, almost any unit in Harlequins, Nids can do it with many units as well.

And thats without DSing XD most units can turn 1 charge with 1/2 of their reserves as DEDICATED Melee units, DE............

@|Meavar No, Orks has a DSing Melee unit Kommandos, and all Orks can re-roll charges

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Nov 08 2017, 13:29

@|Meavar wrote:
@LordSplata wrote:
Agreed, the whole argument that it would be OP if we could charge out of our transports is a load of hog wash.
If you look at the other armies, and I do mean most of them, they have a method of getting across the board and initiating an assault, on top of that, this is probably even on the first turn. Before the other side gets to react (or shoot!). Ie. the Orks have the teleport, which they then can reroll their charge after, or if only one die is bad spend a point on, so it isn't even unlikely they will make it. Gene stealers, alpha legion, etc. they each have a way.
In the light of this, how is our transport charge any different? Except we have to pay for a transport for each unit doing which decreases our assaulting units dramatically.

Plus it's fluffy as we are opportunistic hunters, we wear light armour and hit where it hurts.

Orks still need to make the 9 inch charge and can only teleport 1 unit in competetive play.
Gene stealers have a unit which you pick on which table edge they deploy for eahc unit that can move after, and have a roughly 25% price increase because of it (looking at genestealers and purestrain genestealers/ IG and their human infantry) and like all deep strikers also a unit that cannot do it for each unit that can deep strike.

So would you be willing to make all transports cost 140-145 points and roll a dice each time, after disembarking on a 1 or a 2 you cannot charge anymore. This is roughly what the genestealer variant would be.

Or the ork variant, you get a webway portal for you archon and can deep strike a unit within 6" at the start of the turn and deep strike at the end of the movement phase.

I think the only unit right now that truly has the deployment after moving (actually during move) is the flyer from IG. And it is insanely good, even though a model dies on a 1 when dropping out.


Difference - Dark eldar don't have any access to the psychic phase or any defence against it. It makes sense that we should be compensating for that fact by dominating the movement phase.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Nov 08 2017, 21:54

I would love to be kings of the movement phase. Everyone should have some capacity in the shooting and assault phases, Tau should be king of the former, Orks should be top tier in the latter, along with the Harlequins ect.. But the Dark Eldar should be the undisputed overlords of the movement phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 01:33

@LordSplata wrote:
Difference - Dark eldar don't have any access to the psychic phase or any defence against it. It makes sense that we should be compensating for that fact by dominating the movement phase.

You summed up my thoughts beautifully. You cannot hold us to the same standard as everyone else in all phases we take part in, and at the same time, completely exclude us from a very powerful phase.

There has to be a trade-off. Our lore specifically addresses this by stating the Dark Eldar have honed themselves physically in lieu of focusing at all on the psychic components. I do not feel like this is adequately represented in the actual game.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 09:51

@FuelDrop wrote:
I would love to be kings of the movement phase. Everyone should have some capacity in the shooting and assault phases, Tau should be king of the former, Orks should be top tier in the latter, along with the Harlequins ect.. But the Dark Eldar should be the undisputed overlords of the movement phase.

Very much this. IMO, the movement phase is the most important phase of the game. If you screw that up, it doesn't matter how good your shooting, assault or psychic abilities are, you're not going to make the most of them. The biggest one for me would be to disembark from our transports AFTER they move. We have open-topped vehicles with Wyches and Kabalites hanging off the outside of them for a reason! Doing that would instantly make our infantry units better as they suddenly have a vastly improved threat range. 16" move, 3" disembark, 7-8" normal move, 2d6" assault gives a threat range of 28-38", which actually compares reasonably favourably to many of the other armies out there at the moment.


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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 17:09

I indeed wouldn't mind if CW had sligthly faster vehicles, if we had tricks to make our vehicled troops the fastest in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 18:09

I've been thinking that, too, Mppq. Differentiate these two factions. Give Vypers and bikes and all the Falcon-y tanks a speed burst over ours. But make bikini wearing byches faster than full body armor screaming banshees.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 18:37

With the new Tyranid codex coming out, genestealers have a maximum first turn threat range of 32". My Tyranid friend says with the hive fleet he's taking, he can on average make 25" charges.
I played a game against my ork friend not long ago and Ghazghul made it ~27" up the board on turn one with movement + advance + charge + pile in + consolidate.

There's nothing Dark Eldar can do that comes anywhere remotely close to this level of speed. I feel slow as the True Kin, and that should really, really not be a feeling I should have with an army, whose entire gimmick is supposed to be that they're fast and deadly but die to a mean look.

As count said, if we could disembark after moving, we'd be up there with the speed that the fast armies have access to.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 18:55

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
With the new Tyranid codex coming out, genestealers have a maximum first turn threat range of 32". My Tyranid friend says with the hive fleet he's taking, he can on average make 25" charges.
I played a game against my ork friend not long ago and Ghazghul made it ~27" up the board on turn one with movement + advance + charge + pile in + consolidate.

There's nothing Dark Eldar can do that comes anywhere remotely close to this level of speed. I feel slow as the True Kin, and that should really, really not be a feeling I should have with an army, whose entire gimmick is supposed to be that they're fast and deadly but die to a mean look.

As count said, if we could disembark after moving, we'd be up there with the speed that the fast armies have access to.

Each Genestealer can also DS with a Lictor for 1CP, Genestealers are amazing this edition for sure, i've been looking at a Behemoth 4 Melee Tyrants, 60 Genestealers and 90 Hormaganst with 3 Litcors as a Strong Alpha Strike army, with Malanthrope and hit tone of Rippers as on the table turn 1 so i dont lose.

I know everyone is talking about Dakka Fex's and Flyrants, but a Alpha Strike Tyranid army is one of the easiest to do now.

The HT has only 6 attacks (5 base, 2sets of MRC gives you +1), but they are Re-roll all hits/Wounds, -3 always 3 damage and a 6 to wound is 4 damage, with DS, +1 to charge, rerolling charges.

One of them takes the Relic if you wound a character, roll a D3, if its highest than the wounds that character has left it is instantly slain.


So for DE, WE BETTER get a Boss WWP, like 3 CP to place a token with unlimited DS abilities for all game or something.

Or 3 CP to place 5 WWP's at the start of turn 1 or something and let any unit come through.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 20:14

Honestly seeing as tyranid got "new" stuff (carnifex variety) I don't think it would be all that much to hope/ask for variants in our transports (or just the raider)... Two classes (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned many times through the threads of the dark city, the whispers and wishes of Kabalites, wyches, Succubi, Archon, and Haemunculous alike) assualt class : this class of raider is heavily favored by the wych cults, after many years of tinkering with the design the wych cults perfected the customization of raiders that make them easier for the wych cults to launch devastating attacks from. Assault class raiders come equiped with assault planks making it possible to leave the vehicle after it has moved, it also means that wyches or Incubi embarked on an assault class raider can make close combat attacks while still aboard the raider. The other class would be the main stay of a kabalite force, the weapon class, a more stable version of the assault raider that serves as the perfect shooting platform for the kabalite warriors, it comes standard with Wracks upon Wracks of splinter ammo as well as stable shooting platforms allowing the kabalites to execute precision shots even on a blisteringly fast raider, kabalites and the raider itself suffer no penalties to shooting after an advance movement, the splinter ammo Wracks allow for rerolls of misses, this class of raider allows the kabalites in side to shoot any force that dares to assault this vehicle, kabalites may fire overwatch while embarked. Venom wouldn't get these, but they would get the ability to allow disembark after movement, +1 transport capacity (cause come on the Starweaver is a venom with a different name ...) And the ability "commanders chariot: if a character unit is embarked units within 6" of this venom gain the benefit of the characters aura" ...
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 20:42

I like the concept of raider classes, I think that's a fantastic idea. That said, I would hope we would only see improvements to the current transports, no nurfs lieu of getting something else...to my mind, our raiders in particular are as bare-bones as it comes.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:17

I think it would be even more fluffy to allow our raiders (or assault raiders) to disembark after the end of a charge, and allow disembarked units to be disembarked within 1" of any unit the raider charged.

Basically, the raider charges, THEN the unit disembarks and is already in cc.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:21

Quote :
I think it would be even more fluffy to allow our raiders (or assault raiders) to disembark after the end of a charge, and allow disembarked units to be disembarked within 1" of any unit the raider charged.

Basically, the raider charges, THEN the unit disembarks and is already in cc.

I quite like that! Chances are, you're going to be using the Raider as an Overwatch sponge anyway, so it would certainly save some time and make a nice mental image

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:24

Yep. The whole

- Disembark from the raider
- Move the wyches and the raider
- Charge with the raider
- Charge with the wyches


bugs me a lot : WHY DO YOU QUIT THE VEHICLE IF ITS GOING THE SAME WAY AS YOU ARE ?

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Nov 09 2017, 22:41

@FuelDrop wrote:
I would love to be kings of the movement phase. Everyone should have some capacity in the shooting and assault phases, Tau should be king of the former, Orks should be top tier in the latter, along with the Harlequins ect.. But the Dark Eldar should be the undisputed overlords of the movement phase.

I don't think there can be an objective king fo speed. If you limit speed to how far the movement stat on your units are, you'll always find examples that will bring more to the table. The same applies to charge distances or T1 charges in general.

Especially with the likes of Harlequinn, you'll never be undoubtedly better. And I bet Dark Angels are also going to get some crazy rules as well.

Should we be a top tier speed army? For sure
Should be be the definite top tier speed army? I am not convined on that one.

I'd much rather be a top tier army in terms of speed and firepower. Rather than being the single most powerful army in one of those aspects. I view ourselves as a horde army with elite speed and wargear and I'd like to keep

I have no problem with a few factions being faster than us, as long as we bring more dakka to the table.

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