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 Letter to GW about our wishes and requests

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What unit should we mention ?
- Special HQs
12%
 12% [ 43 ]
- Better regular HQs
19%
 19% [ 68 ]
- Reavers
12%
 12% [ 43 ]
- Hellions
7%
 7% [ 25 ]
- Wyches
9%
 9% [ 34 ]
- Poison weapons
9%
 9% [ 33 ]
- Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters
17%
 17% [ 61 ]
- Pain Engines and grotesques
14%
 14% [ 53 ]
- Other units (please state in thread)
1%
 1% [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 367
 

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 21:50

And to add ... Make the Voidraven Bomber ... A bomber ... One bomb isn't enough to justify calling it a bomber ... Unless that one bomb has an effect on every unit within a specific radius of the unit it lands on ... Also why should a bomber have to pay for Missiles it should come stock with ... Or better yet don't give it missiles but bomb pods, have a similar effects to the Missiles but instead of shooting they get dropped on a unit the Voidraven flies over ... And it can drop multiple bombs a turn but only one of each so say it has a Void bomb pod, Shatterfield bomb pod, necrotoxin bomb pod and haywire bomb pod. Void bomb does exactly what it does now but more then once a game, necrotoxin bomb -rolls a D6 for each non vehicle model in the unit on each roll of a 2+ that unit suffers a wound at ap- (hoard control) Shatterfield bomb Str 7 ap-1 3D6 hits reroll failed wounds. Haywire bomb Str 4 ap-1 D6 hits per vehicle in unit, each wounds vehicles on a 4+, wound reduces the vehicles max movement by 1" until the start of the DE next turn and reduces the BS by 1 per hit 7+ means the vehicles weapon systems have been temporarily disabled. ... Idk if that would make the bomber way to powerful but I would pay 200 points for this kinda bomber
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 22:23

@Archon_91 wrote:
And to add ... Make the Voidraven Bomber ... A bomber ... One bomb isn't enough to justify calling it a bomber ... Unless that one bomb has an effect on every unit within a specific radius of the unit it lands on ...  Also why should a bomber have to pay for Missiles it should come stock with ... Or better yet don't give it missiles but bomb pods, have a similar effects to the Missiles but instead of shooting they get dropped on a unit the Voidraven flies over ... And it can drop multiple bombs a turn but only one of each so say it has a Void bomb pod, Shatterfield bomb pod, necrotoxin bomb pod and haywire bomb pod. Void bomb does exactly what it does now but more then once a game, necrotoxin bomb -rolls a D6 for each non vehicle model in the unit on each roll of a 2+ that unit suffers a wound at ap- (hoard control) Shatterfield bomb Str 7 ap-1 3D6 hits reroll failed wounds. Haywire bomb Str 4 ap-1 D6 hits per vehicle in unit, each wounds vehicles on a 4+, wound reduces the vehicles max movement by 1" until the start of the DE next turn and reduces the BS by 1 per hit 7+ means the vehicles weapon systems have been temporarily disabled. ... Idk if that would make the bomber way to powerful but I would pay 200 points for this kinda bomber

A Bomber with more than one bomb?!? MADNESS!!!

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 23:26

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Archon_91 wrote:
And to add ... Make the Voidraven Bomber ... A bomber ... One bomb isn't enough to justify calling it a bomber ... Unless that one bomb has an effect on every unit within a specific radius of the unit it lands on ...  Also why should a bomber have to pay for Missiles it should come stock with ... Or better yet don't give it missiles but bomb pods, have a similar effects to the Missiles but instead of shooting they get dropped on a unit the Voidraven flies over ... And it can drop multiple bombs a turn but only one of each so say it has a Void bomb pod, Shatterfield bomb pod, necrotoxin bomb pod and haywire bomb pod. Void bomb does exactly what it does now but more then once a game, necrotoxin bomb -rolls a D6 for each non vehicle model in the unit on each roll of a 2+ that unit suffers a wound at ap- (hoard control) Shatterfield bomb Str 7 ap-1 3D6 hits reroll failed wounds. Haywire bomb Str 4 ap-1 D6 hits per vehicle in unit, each wounds vehicles on a 4+, wound reduces the vehicles max movement by 1" until the start of the DE next turn and reduces the BS by 1 per hit 7+ means the vehicles weapon systems have been temporarily disabled. ... Idk if that would make the bomber way to powerful but I would pay 200 points for this kinda bomber

A Bomber with more than one bomb?!? MADNESS!!!

I'm fine with it only having one bomb. How many bombs did the Enola Gay or Bocks Car drop? Just 1 each. Maybe let it shoot 2 missiles per turn? That would differentiate it from the RWJF to feel more heavy.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Fri Sep 15 2017, 06:46

One or 2 bombs sound ok to me, carrying more is realistically often not feasible if they are the big bombs. But then it should be big bombs.
Right now the one bomb we have can't do more then a few wounds. Either it does around 6-7 wounds against a large unit, which is only slightly more then a dissy ravager does each turn, and that means a horde unit, which means sometimes regular kabalite units deal more damage... The bomb does around 2 wounds to a (superheavy) tank, again not much more then a DL ravager deals each turn, when shooting at regular tanks, monsters, and smaller squads a ravager deals more damage then the bomb. Even the other weapons of the voidraven often deal more damage then the bomb.

That being said, right now the point cost of the bomber is not my biggest problem (it might not feel like the bomb is the major focus but it still fills a function), it is the price of the model that stops me mostly...
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Fri Sep 15 2017, 09:06

It does 6-7 mortal wounds. That is a lot of mortal wounds.
The problem with the VM right now is that it's useless against vehicles, and often against MCs (that are never considered to be a single squad). It could probably rise up to 5 dices per vehicle/MC.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 01:17

Small request re: Void Raven. Make Implosion missiles deal d3 damage each, so they're better for hunting heavy infantry and light vehicles. Too much out there with multiple wounds, and it has lower strength and half the shots of the shattershard already...

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 06:01

I only want a few things BESIDES CHEAPER UNITS (Hellions, Coven units etc...) These are the MINIMUM changes i want in order to keep playing DE, otherwise i'm going to main Harlequins (im tired of playing 4 unit spam for the past 4 years and i'm not doing it for 4 more, if i want to only use 4 unit i'd rather just play Quins).

Splinter cannons to be Rabid 6 (at least on Venoms FFS)
Better Auras on HQ's
HQ Options for mobility (this should effect the Aura)
WWP's even if its like Trygons and you have to buy a unit and its 1 per, IDC i want them back.

Bonus Round, Wyches can have more Wych weapons per unit.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 10:49

@Jimsolo wrote:
I just want Duke Sliscus back.

Like button please. pirat

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 12:31

Okay guys here is my attempt at writing that letter. If anything is missing, or you disagree with anything, or if you think you would have expressed something differently, please please say it, as the idea behind this letter was to write something that we could all recognize ourselves in.
I'm also not a native english speaker, so there will be typos, and i count on you to help me find them.

Spoiler:
 

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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 12:50

Looks pretty good to me. I think adding too much more in a single letter would make it more likely to be ignored. Hopefully after realising that the army still gets played they'll try to keep enough stock, it's getting pretty hard to actually buy models to expand
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 12:52

A few notes, though let me preface by thanking you for talking the time to write this up.

Some of your statements could really use some proof. Ie. "Shredders aren't doing their job, here's some buffs we think would work " just sounds like were asking for the moon. Attaching some of the spreadsheets that forum members have provided and referring to it in the letter should help.

On the whole the letter provides too many solutions to problems that GW has consistently proven they don't see. I suggest the entire letter be slightly altered to the form that the very well done HQ section takes instead. Tell them what isn't working and why before making any suggestions on how to fix it or else it may come across as whiney (to GW, not me).

If you remove the suggested fixes (or even the majority of them) you can also remove the conciliatory statements you make (such as " no escape would be too strong without the roll off", fiends of slaneesh have it and nobody uses them). Removing the suggestions while presenting the problems in both game terms and mathematical analysis should move this more from a plea to a... report, which I think has more chance of reaching anyone in a heartless business. They need to be convinced there is a problem (dissatisfied customers) that is also grounded in their product (mathematical and tactical analysis like you've provided) before we can hope to see any effort on their part.

Lastly making it a report of the numerous short falls makes it a more cohesive representation of the players on this forum, as we can all agree on math even if we can't agree on which fix is best.

Lastly @philkelly this letter and post it in numerous locations. If it's publicly visible they can less afford to ignore it.

Thank you again.

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 13:56

First - great letter. There are a few ideas etc that I'd love to add, but if we started doing that this would turn into a 50 page document. What you have hits the core issues on the head.

I took the liberty of setting this up in google docs, and editing it for spelling, grammar, and syntax. If you are not familiar with google docs, anyone who clicks on the link below can also make comments. I did all my edits using the edit function, so if you Mmpqlmd, like them, I can hit the check mark and the doc will add them for you.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XNp5SwzBsbeTpjx4zcOVD3BBI6teZY5PGFwR7uRk50I/edit?usp=sharing
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:02

First, thank you for writing the letter. Awesome. It's pretty good for a first attempt. Agreed with Red King though. He has valid points. I am highly anticipating your 2nd attempt.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:06

Wow guys, it's nice to see such enthusiasm !
Great idea with the Googledoc, it's probably the most sensible way to handle it.

I agree with your remarks, RedKing. Do you think we should include such informations (stats) in the core text, or juxtapose it within an "appendix" ?

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:18

Great - I added all the edits there.


For the PfP idea - I know it's been bandied about that we get +1 CP per unit destroyed. I fear this will make us too OP or have so much CP it loses it's worth to us. What if it was on a 4+ we gain a CP, with Vect boosting that to a 2+
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:53

Probably an addendum. Don't want to bore them lol.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 16:32

@Faitherun wrote:
Great - I added all the edits there.


For the PfP idea - I know it's been bandied about that we get +1 CP per unit destroyed. I fear this will make us too OP or have so much CP it loses it's worth to us. What if it was on a 4+ we gain a CP, with Vect boosting that to a 2+

I'm not sure how many units you routinely destroy throughout a battle but, particularly in the horde meta of 8e, having a guaranteed +1CP for each unit kill is not going to make us OP. Having to roll to get the CP also means you can effectively go the entire battle without PfP at all if you roll badly. Don't forget, this is supposed to be in place of the current PfP rules!

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 16:46

I am finding I get about 8 units killed min per game. 4 extra CP, on top of the 6 I get from a battle forged detachment - 12 CP may be too much - 8 is pretty good.

If yall disagree that is fine.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 17:35

I'd rather not lose the buffs from PfP in favor to CPs.
I'd suggest something like KDK blood tithe in 7th, unlocking buffs with kill points.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 17:49

Though the chart shouldn't run per turn ... I like the idea of 5th edition where killing a unit gained the bonus but change it so the bonus is army wide ... I understand the idea of "every turn this happens" is to show the progression of pain throughout the fight but it doesn't do a very good job of really making the amount of pain caused felt ... Advancing the chart every time a unit is destroyed I think would be better ... And have 7-10 different buffs on the chart as it's a safe bet that every army will have at least 7 units for us to destroy. And each unit destroyed adds to the chart . (Units destroyed by moral count)
Quick chart.
0 units destroyed - 6+++
1 unit reroll hits of 1 shooting and CC
2 reroll charge distance
3 +1 to hit shooting and cc
4 advance 6+++ to a 5+++
5 -1 leadership bubble 12"
6 auto pass moral
7 advance 5+++ to 4+++
8 +1 to wound Shooting and cc
9 -2 moral bubble
10 Win (let's face it ... By this time the opponents army is wiped or very very very close to it)
This basically gives us a reason to focus fire on units instead of doing a couple of wounds and letting moral take a couple more ... But this might be a bit powerful
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 19:17

I would also suggest adding some math, since a statement of "The Heatlance, for instance, feels like an expensive downgrade" or "The Haywire Blaster is in a weird spot right now" or "the Shredder should be D6" can be understood to mean you do not like the weapon or that it didn't work out for you in a few games - subjective feedback.

But we have calculated this and the haywire blaster and heat lance are literally numerically worse than other comparable anti-armor weapons on offer versus all common targets. The HWB is worse than a blaster even vs vehicles, unless it's a T9 target or has unusual saves, which makes HWB not worth taking. The heat lance is worse even at its melta range than a dark lance unless the target has T9 or Sv2+ and in the latter case the difference is a few percent points only. And you are paying 25 points for it which is more than you would for a dark lance. Even the Blaster is better than the heat lance vs a T7 vehicle. All this would be fixed if it were S8 like marine weapons. So using numbers should highlight the issue better.


Personally wrt/ content of the letter I would emphasize highlighting problems and possibly offering some simple fixes (e.g adjust a value so the math makes more sense) without extensive wishlisting or re-imagining the army, so that there is no loss of focus and the message stays clear. Good stuff, however.

e: paragraph 2 was missing a few words
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 20:57

I still think that +1CP per destroyed unit as a replacement for PfP is rather bland, and has its worth *entirely* contingent on how good the stratagems in the book are. So I think that it is a valid concern that, if GW grants this request, it could be cancelled out with craptastic stratagems (especially since we haven't given them any direction on that front as part of our PfP suggestion in the letter - but if we do, then the letter might be *too* long).

It might be a good idea to leave that out of this letter, for the sake of economy, and then, in a month or two, submit a letter entirely devoted to fixing PfP, which, if you go with the CP idea, is a multi-part solution.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 21:29

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Looks like the PfP is really controversial (more than i thought) so maybe we should indeed leave it out, since it does not represent a consensus ?

I will try and rework it tomorrow and set myself to assemble a global mathammer sheets for every unit/weapon that is listed as lackluster. Any help is welcome of course.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sat Sep 16 2017, 23:50

I am still a fan of simply reversing how the power from pain table works. You start with everything and lose stuff every turn that you don't wipe a unit.

Alternatively, give unique PFP stratagems that can only be triggered when a unit is destroyed (thus giving a CP) which affect large sections of the army, rather than just one unit.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Sun Sep 17 2017, 00:05

Quote :
I am still a fan of simply reversing how the power from pain table works. You start with everything and lose stuff every turn that you don't wipe a unit.
While i see the logic behind this, that's not how a DE raid works. The DE don't raid to feed immediatly, they raid to capture victims. That proposition makes them feel a bit like junkies in withdrawal.

Quote :
Alternatively, give unique PFP stratagems that can only be triggered when a unit is destroyed (thus giving a CP) which affect large sections of the army, rather than just one unit.
I like that one better. Basically, it would be "Everytime you slay a unit, chose one benefit from the following table. Your army gains that benefit until the start of your next turn".

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