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 Letter to GW about our wishes and requests

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What unit should we mention ?
- Special HQs
12%
 12% [ 43 ]
- Better regular HQs
19%
 19% [ 68 ]
- Reavers
12%
 12% [ 43 ]
- Hellions
7%
 7% [ 25 ]
- Wyches
9%
 9% [ 34 ]
- Poison weapons
9%
 9% [ 33 ]
- Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters
17%
 17% [ 61 ]
- Pain Engines and grotesques
14%
 14% [ 53 ]
- Other units (please state in thread)
1%
 1% [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 367
 

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 17:17

So considering the amount of our members that would be interested in sending a letter to GW with our requests/ideas, i think it would be wise to start by listing the priority topics that the it should adress.

Here's my suggestion : let's vote for units that require change, and then discuss in the thread about what changes that would imply.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 17:33

All of the above would be nice.

Special HQs would be good, since the vast majority that we used to have are gone and we're lacking compared to most other factions.

Our HQs could use some minor buffs. Better auras are a possibility - the Archon's leadership buff is very weak, and having them divided up by the three different factions is also painful. It'd be nice to have better transport options as well; either increase the amount that our Raiders and Venoms can carry by one, or give us the ability to take HQs on jetbikes or skyboards. Also, let auras work when embarked on a transport!

Reavers and Hellions mostly just need a slight point decrease, I think, although better weapons on the Reavers would be nice too. Maybe Shardcarbines as stock and the ability for all models to take Special or Heavy weapons.

It's hard to figure out what Wychs and Bloodbrides might benefit from. Maybe making their special rule more consistent instead of a roll-off, so they're better at keeping things locked up.

Poison weapons, on the whole, are okay. Splinter Cannons could use a buff - either a points reduction, or, maybe, something like an increase in the number of shots - and poison in general might benefit from a better chance to wound models with a toughness below 4.

Heat lances need a severe point reduction. Shredders could do more consistent damage. Haywire Blasters are mostly okay, they're just very niche.

Pain Engines and Grotesques probably could just use a slight point reduction.

One thing not on the list that I'd like to see addressed in the Codex is our general lack of force multiplication compared to (most?) other armies; we have HQs with fairly weak auras, we don't have psychic powers to improve our units. If it's not fluffy enough for us to have buffs for ourselves, it'd be nice to at least have severe debuffs to the enemy.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 17:47

Porting over my opinions from the other thread as a start to the conversation.

PFP:
Love the idea on here that it is simply +1 CP per unit destroyed and let stratagems fill in the rest.


HQ:
Give them all better aura buffs and access to more and better gear.

I think Raiders should have a special rule: Dais of command or Command deck etc. Aura buffs created by passengers may be measured from the hull of this vehicle.

Fits the fluff and fixes the problem we have now without GW needing to add kits. I would love mobile board and bike archons back but I doubt it will happen. I would argue this is more fluffy anyway.

Vect needs to return, again I would like the others but honestly how they managed to pull him from our book blows my mind. It's like pulling Gaz from the orks over a dropped mold.

Wych Cult:
Decrease wyches, let them advance and charge. Give them the rule the penetrating blade, attacks are ap-1 and on a 6 ap-4. Make the weapons same as now only shardnets add 1 to the no escape roll and it stacks. Bloodbrides can all have wych weapons, makes no sense that vanguard vets can take anything under the sun for combat gear but our equivalent is restricted.

Hellions make them work like swooping hawk grenade packs, allow them to roll a die per model that flies over an enemy unit, on a 4+ they take an ap -1 wound on a 6 they cause a mortal wound instead. Let them deepstrike.

Bikes: let blade vanes work like they do now as a combat weapon but also on a turn they charge each bike within 1" gets a free s4 ap -1 hit that on a 6 to wound causes an additional mortal wound. Poin t adjustment. Done

Kabalyte:

I honestly think this needs the least work. I think splinter weapons as a whole should be redesigned since poison is not something you can balance as an army mechanic. It sucks vs GEQ is meh vs MEQ and hoses monsters which makes no sense, toxins generally are most lethal to the weak. Personally I'd make splinter canons s4 and all other splinter weapons st3 and give them all shred vs non vehicles.

Shredders should be flamers or at the very least have monofiliment. Costs for gear need adjustments and I would like to see warriors being able to take specials or heavy weapons interchangeably. This nonsense where I can take a special per 5 only and then only add a heavy at 10 is stupid. We are not tactical squads we are cutthroat pirate crews.

Coven:

Wracks, point drop and a slight change to gear options. Make tools of torment and weapons of torture one fricken list. LOL. So dumb that I can't arm the 1 in 5 wracks with a weapon of torture rather then tool of torment yet the leader can take either. I don't think 3 out of 10 wracks with electro corrosive whips could be considered broken.

Groteques point drop and +1 wound. Flesh gauntlets should be one additional attack that causes a mortal wound on a 4+, on a 6 it causes d3.

Talos need a dreadnought CCW of some sort. AP-3 and 3 damage with some sort of strength mod. Chainflails should be an alternate attack like titanic feet. basically make them trade an attack for 2 attacks at strength user no AP and shred. Ichor injector should be same as flesh gauntlet only it always wounds nonvehicles on a 2+ for single mortal wound and on a 4+ causes d3.

Liquifiers I have a couple ideas. The easiest fix is to make them s4 again. But part of me wants some flavor ala ork rank hammers wear the user simply evacuates his blood bile and it causes him mortal wounds or flat death for some heinous damage output lol.

Ossefactors should cause d3 mortal wounds on the 4+ roll rather then 1.

Cronos needs to be entirely reworked. I think using them as PFP bateries would be cool. Maybe for each enemy unit destroyed within 3" he adds a further CP and definitely fix his gear.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 18:11

I'd like the general concept of our Transports to be reimagined. What I think that GW fails to fully realize is that our infantry by and large needs their Transports (Our troops most certainly do). The problem arises when you're putting a 35 point unit in an 80 point transport. At the same time, you can be perfectly happy with putting a 90 point unit in the same transport. What we need is a way for our vehicles to scale with the cargo they're carrying. The Imperium can pull this off, as they have a multitude of Transports that can accomplish any task. It's unlikely that we'll be getting a new vehicle mold (unless Vect's dais makes a return), so I see one solution to help: Upgrades.

Let's take the humble Venom. I'll be assuming that the cost of Splinter Cannons will go down to ten points for this.

Make the base cost of the Venom drop to 35 points, but take off practically all of its abilities. Basically, you'll pay 45 points for a transport with Open Topped and Fly, but with undoubtedly the weakest defenses in the game. Now instead of having a 35 point unit hitch a ride in an 80 point transport (115 total), the same unit can ride in a paper boat costing only 45 points (80 total).

From there, we can just pick and choose from a plethora of upgrades. Night Shields, Flickerfields, of course, along with the return of Retrofire Jets, Envenomed Blades, Chain Snares, and Grisly Trophies (Naturally with appropriate changes on all of them). In addition, I think some specialized upgrades would also go along way. Something that lowered the transport capacity to 1, but allowed occupants Auras to work while embarked (Helps solve some of our HQ problems). Another might simply increase transport Capacity by 1 (HQ + 5 Man Squad). Others that allow for better advancing, disembark after movement, etc.

The general idea is that we need to make our Transports as flexible as the army that relies on them.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 18:17

Poison got a huge nerf. Sure it wounds easily, but it didn't get any cheaper and SC were basically halved in ranged effectiveness. Even if they stayed the same their effective has gotten much worse. Nearly everything at least doubled in wounds. So we are getting fewer shots with less range. I just don't bother upgrading the Twin Splinter rifle anymore. Take the 1-2 fewer shots and squeeze another blaster in somewhere.

Reavers are getting no love from me either. I just don't see the point.They don't really know what they want to be when they grow up and without jink and no being far worse against vehicles and no real effectiveness from Cluster Caltrops, they are in a weird place for me and I don't know how to even begin to use them.
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 18:44

The reavers were an immediate problem for me after seeing that jink was gone, and unlike our vehicles who were given nightshields, the reavers were given nothing (being almost double the cost, we didn't gain a wound and +1 armour we paid for it). I would like to see them, and maybe the hellions gain some sort of invulnerable save, essentially taking evasive manoeuvres against incoming fire (doesn't seem too unfeasible to me given the usual stunts reavers pull in the arena )


Last edited by Mikoneo on Wed Sep 13 2017, 18:45; edited 1 time in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 18:44

I just want Duke Sliscus back.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 19:35

I think the problem with this poll format is that everybody is inlinced to vote for all of these things. I tried to restrain myself and chose the following:

- Regular HQs
Because force multipliers are a thing now.

- Wyches
We need good melee-troops and spamming Kabalities solves very little.

- "Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters"
I believe that Special Weapons are a core problem we have right now. A lot could be fixed by tweaking their stats and make them more available.

- Pain Engines and Grotesques
This is a huge let-down for coven lists. Both have lost a tremendous amount of power on the board. Especially Grotesques could be one of our best anti-horde answers but they can't counter anything right now.


As for special HQs, we don't need them right now. They add flavour to an army and it is great to have them, but we have bigger problems right now.

And regarding poison weapons, I think poison does exactly what it is supposed to do. The problem is that it is the only tool we are given as AI.

Edit: I think we should address that we want to replace the PFP chart with a "gain a CP" mechanic when killing a unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 19:40

im quite confident we will get Vect back so im not worrying too much about special HQs and frankly i dont really care about them i prefer to have my army build and named from scrach.
But boy do our regular HQs need some love. Well everything you mention is important but if id have to choose one it would be them...
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 20:15

@The Strange Dark One wrote:


And regarding poison weapons, I think poison does exactly what it is supposed to do. The problem is that it is the only tool we are given as AI.


Except poison doesn't do what it is intended which is why it's so expensive currently and still failing. You can't increase the shots or lower the points anymore then they are without utterly screwing elite armies. So because of this poison sucks at doing anything well which is a problem. Basic infantry weapons should be for killing other basic infantry. Darklight and/or heaven forbid the shredder should be for elite units.

All poison needs is a strength coupled with a special rule to aid it in wounding non vehicles. S3/4 and add 1 to the wound roll against non vehicles or simply shred. Either work and totally fix why poison sucks. It's idiotic that a toxin has the same effect vs a gretchen that it does vs a tervigon and totally not how dosing works, you don't give the same amount of aspirin to a child as you would a dinosaur.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 20:53

I will only address what I have experience with.

Reavers need a price drop for sure.

Poison needs something. Either reroll failed to wound or perhaps an AP value.

Splinter Cannons need a price drop or 4/8 rapid fire.

Would love to see Vect.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 21:23

Quote :
It's idiotic that a toxin has the same effect vs a gretchen that it does vs a tervigon and totally not how dosing works, you don't give the same amount of aspirin to a child as you would a dinosaur.

To be fair, Orks have a pretty large poison resistance (Hence why there's a story of a bunch of them being enslaved to build that one gigantic statue in the middle of a chemical soup.)
But between Guardsmen and a Marine? A malnourished little peon who's middle aged by the time their voice deepens is exactly as resistant to poison as a hulking supersoldier with more extra organs than Zim? Really?

Quote :
All poison needs is a strength coupled with a special rule to aid it in wounding non vehicles. S3/4 and add 1 to the wound roll against non vehicles or simply shred.

I think making it S3 with +1 to the Wound Roll would effectively solve the problem. Exactly as effective as a Bolter against T2, 3, and 4, yet still granting a slight advantage against big stuff, still sucking at killing vehicles, and taking a slight hit against T6+.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 21:49

I picked my top 4, as I think a focused letter would be the best approach... with perhaps another focused letter in a few months to cover the other areas, after they've had time to digest the first one.
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Cherrycoke
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 22:37

Wyches need to lock stuff up with nets, no roll off RNG.
Splinter Cannons need to be 4/6 minimum, my army literally got nerfed in half due to the rapid fire 3 change, wtf.
Give Webway portal back.
More one shot insidious gadgets & devices!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Wed Sep 13 2017, 23:04

I would be glad to see Poison weapons get the arrow treatment Woodelves received end of 8th edition. Make it similar to drugs for wyches, but ammo for kabalites. 6's always wound still.

Traditional (anti-horde) - wound anything non-vehicle on a 4+ (Rapid fire 2) ap-
Fleshbane (anti-MC) - wound anything non-vehicle on a 2+ (Rapid fire 1) ap-
Haywire (anti-vehicle) - S1, wound vehicle on a 4+ (Rapid fire 1) ap-1
Corrosive (anti-armor) - wound anything non-vehicle on a 4+ (Rapid fire 1) ap-2

I dunno, something like that but better.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 01:36

@Sarkesian wrote:
I would be glad to see Poison weapons get the arrow treatment Woodelves received end of 8th edition. Make it similar to drugs for wyches, but ammo for kabalites. 6's always wound still.

Traditional (anti-horde) - wound anything non-vehicle on a 4+ (Rapid fire 2) ap-
Fleshbane (anti-MC) - wound anything non-vehicle on a 2+ (Rapid fire 1) ap-
Haywire (anti-vehicle) - S1, wound vehicle on a 4+ (Rapid fire 1) ap-1
Corrosive (anti-armor) - wound anything non-vehicle on a 4+ (Rapid fire 1) ap-2

I dunno, something like that but better.

This is a neat idea for a game like shadow war but way too contrived for an army wide weapon in 40k. just make the splinter weapons s3/4 and +1 to wound nonvehicles. Done.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 02:26

I'm the one that also checked other. I'd like to see beastpacks be more viable. Thematically, I can see beastpacks leading the charge while gunboats such as ravagers or raiders are sitting back opening transports or enemy armor. The beastpacks should an expendable front line.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 05:44

@lament.config wrote:
I'm the one that also checked other. I'd like to see beastpacks be more viable. Thematically, I can see beastpacks leading the charge while gunboats such as ravagers or raiders are sitting back opening transports or enemy armor. The beastpacks should an expendable front line.  

Beast packs and Courts both need a plastic kit.
The court also needs some serious special rules to make each option interesting.
The beasts could benefit from extra rules, but they are already in a kinda juicy spot.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 07:14

Incubi also need a plastic kit. I don't think we should hold our breath there as GW seem to be focusing on rules for existing armies and model releases for "new" armies (eg Primaris and DG). This seems totally fair given the release schedule, but worries my that we won't see the improvements a lot of people want to our HQs ie skyboards, jetbikes and wings, as GW are still frustratingly committed to only putting rules in Codices for models they produce themselves.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 07:39

HQ:
Right now they are lackluster and they need to be better, I would prefer some options to differentiate between regular HQs (jetbike/skyboard/wings) and possibly some loadout that really changes their feel. If this is impossible then special characters like baron Sathonyx would be nice. Succubus need to be more about killing stuff and need more not less attacks then our other HQs.


Reavers Need a price decrease of more offensive potential.
Hellions Just need a price decrease, they are to squishy for their points and to large to reliably hide.
Wyches Need a point decrease, or some serious damage and minor charge buffs
Poison weapons Do not need much work although the splinter cannon now is to weak for it's points and it would be nice if it actually was better then a splinter rifle (maybe get some ap?) instead of just a few more shots
Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters Heat lances need a price reduction
Shredders need to be given a function, probably either ap or flamer autohits
Haywire blasters should be given a special rule to inhibit vehicles more then destroy them, or a damage boost or they need to be much cheaper.
Pain Engines and grotesques Not much experience with coven stuff, but I think grotesques just need another wound. Pain engines need ap and probably 2 attacks more or so. Also their ichor injector should either always do the mortal wound or not be max 1 attack.
Other units Vehicles, please give us better transport capabilities, mainly 1 more transport capacity for the venom. And as mentioned before we now have melee units of 45-55 points which are to squishy to go without a transport which increases the cost to 250-300%

Some additional plastic kits would be nice yes.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 09:47

TBH some of the Court of the Archon could use some refinement. I wouldn't object to it containing another Dark Eldar unit rather than being 3/4 aliens.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 10:18

My thoughts on each of the categories in the poll:

Special HQs - At the moment there is very little reason to take any of these. Lelith is nearly twice the price of a Succubus but nowhere near twice as good. Urien seems to be paying points for the laughably poor Ichor Injector and swapping the somewhat useful Crucible for the crappy Casket. Drazhar is semi-decent but his buff to Incubui is wasted due to the similar benefit from PfP and I'd say he's also overpriced. More importantly, why do we only have 3 special characters and no Lord of War? Vect, Baron, Sliscus, Malys and Decapitator need to return asap!

Better regular HQs - All three HQs need abilities that effect all Drukhari units and a second ability that only effects Cult/Kabal/Coven units. Why is the Succubus a worse melee combatant than the Haemonculus? She needs more attacks and her aura needs to improve the damage of Wyches. Re-rolling failed wound rolls for Cult units within 6" would be a nice start. The Archon needs a massive boost. His aura is pathetic and doesn't work from inside a vehicle. He should have abilities to represent his cunning. Something like negating enemy stratagems on a 4+ (Vect should have the same but on a 2+). The Haemonculus is pretty much okay as is.

Reavers - price drop desperately needed. Caltrops also need to be reworked and GW need to decide if Reavers are shooting or melee as currently they suck at both.

Hellions - I think a price drop will probably sort these out as they are essentially okay but just too expensive

Wyches - they need more damage! I don't mind them being vulnerable but the pay off for that should be that they hit like a ton of bricks! They need +1A base, -1AP on all weapons and some sort of protection from pistols (allow their dodge save against them). Shardnets should boost the roll to tie units up in combat and should stack.

Poison weapons - need to have a Strength value and a minimum to wound score, ie the same rule as Necron Scarabs Feeder Mandibles. You can vary the strength of the different weapons as well, so Cannon could be higher S than Rifles for example.

Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters - Heatlances should re-roll failed wounds against <VEHICLE> units and/or get a version of the old Lance rule where Toughness higher than x is counted as x. Shredders need to be D6 auto-hits, akin to flamer weapons. Haywire needs to degrade vehicle performance as well as inflicting damage. Perhaps preventing movement and/or shooting in the following turn or applying -1 to hit (stacking) for each hit on the vehicle

Pain Engines and grotesques - The Talos needs a serious boost. Its weapons should be tailored to either be anti-horde (chainflails should be similar to the Death Guard Foetid Blight Drone's fleshmower , Scalpels should have a much better AP etc). The Cronos needs to heal damage for every wound inflicted. Grots need at least +1 Wound and probably a small price drop


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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 15:07

The low position of special HQs in the voting makes me sad.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 16:03

Issues:

The HQs are just bad, you would never take any of these if you weren't forced to except MAYBE the haemy. I cannot think of any army that wants a single archon (for the unit itself, not to fill requirements) unless it's the characters only shadow field cheese list which shouldn't exist. Can you? This is not the case for other armies' HQs. Fix by giving them more interesting rules please, they don't need a massive buff, they just need to not be overcosted blasters/glaives/whips and that is all.

The index is bland, there are no interesting upgrades whatever. All ranged weapons that aren't poison or darklight or disintegrators are overcosted and bad. Hexrifle, heat lance, haywire blaster, what is the point when these weapons just underperform against everything for the price? And not in "opinion", just doing simple math shows it. The SC is a trap for infantry. Fix by making options more viable and by returning 7e upgrade options please, including vehicle upgrades. Make it more interesting to personalize things or even just make it possible.

Return special characters, they are the soul of wh40k. Why is Drazhar worse than a squad of incubi when he costs as much as one and a half? Give the HQs interesting auras like other armies please.

I have no balance complaints so long as you don't introduce power creep with codices. If you do, please keep us balanced as we were in the index.

Finally on a positive note as a loyal DE fan I am really happy with 8 edition. These changes would make me happier and even buy more of your models and tell more stories, so please consider them.

That is all from me. This would need some formatting if I were sending the letter. Should include something positive too, else it's easier to ignore. And it's true, that positive I wrote.

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PostSubject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests   Thu Sep 14 2017, 19:53

Quote :
Finally on a positive note as a loyal DE fan I am really happy with 8 edition. These changes would make me happier and even buy more of your models and tell more stories, so please consider them.
Amen to that Smile

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