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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 07:27

It has been noteworthy that the codexes seem to be moving in the direction of having chapters, legions, forge worlds, each with their own special rules. It is not unreasonable to expect that Regiments, Hive Fleets, Craftworlds, Clanz/Waaaghs, Tomb Worlds, ect will be added to that list.

So now we run into the True Kin. Famous chapters, legions, craftworlds, forge worlds, regiments... even players outside those armies can probably name most of them.
Famous kabals, Cults, Covens? I PLAY Dark Eldar and would have a hard time naming them and even if I could spit out a couple I am not exactly going to be able to point at distinctions between them! Oh, and a DE army might have all 3 elements, plus units that fit into none of the above!

So this thread is about how this might be handled.There are no bad ideas... except that one. Shame on you for even thinking it. You know who you are. But yeah, suggestions are welcome.

How I think it could be handled is, rather than relying on name recognition of kabals ect, we have Archtypes (like how I am assuming Regiments will work), allowing you to customize your army to various roles.

For instance, you could have kabals being Slavetakers or Plunderers, being focused on anti-infantry or anti-vehicle respectively. Cults might be Gladiators or Duelists, with the former getting an edge at crowd control while the latter have an advantage at hunting down characters, monstrous creatures and walkers. Covens might be Fleshwarpers or Bonecrafters, with the former getting offensive boosts while the latter gets defensive enhancements.

And you would only get the relevant enhancements if you have the associated HQ in your list. So for example, you could take a Cabal army with a squad of trueborn, but unless you take an Archon those trueborn do not get a kabal benefit.

Thoughts?
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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 07:54

Interesting. Well I hope Lords of the Iron Thorn get something fluffy as my force is painted up as them and tbeyre my favorite. However I see it being more emphasized on kabal, cult, and coven. Maybe 2 famous ones of each giving us 6.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 08:58

For me the Dark Eldar are about bringing pain so I am just hoping the rules get re written for 80% of our weapons to make them useful again.

I would love some fluff in the army aside from simply being fast.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 09:04

So Ashcrow, if you had your pick what kabals ect would we have and what would their focuses be?

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mtruelove
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 09:54

I just love how a lot of the new codex stuff makes it feel like you're playing that army. If they do the same for DE I will be happy - imagine if your opponent was actually terrified of your wyche cult getting in melee, or your haemonculus coven caused mass fear.

And if they can make every weapon viable that would great!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 10:06

It's really not that hard to make DE rules that are both fluffy and competitive. The denizens here have come up with many, many such ideas. The problem appears to be that GW seem to have an unerring ability to completely ignore any such ideas and give us the same, bland, uninspiring and uncompetitive rules that we've suffered from for the previous 2 editions of the game. I've got fingers crossed that our new codex will remedy this but it's very much optimism over experience.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 10:12

I do think our lack of attention in the fluff hurts us. Almost every other faction has distinctive chapters/whatever that are instantly recognizable by anyone familiar with the game. Ours are at best obscure and undistinguished from the others except by name or colour scheme.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 10:22

I can see it, but I think the answer is obvious.

I think mechanicum are getting six Forgeworlds? THat number would make sense for us with the three faction types, plus one named group. SO we'll get rules for Kabals, and then for Black Heart, rules for Cults, and then Cult of Streife, rules for Covens, and then Prophets Of Flesh.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 10:56

There isn't a massive amount of fluff written about the different Kabals is there? I have read up on all the Kabals listed on the Lexicanum website and many of them have very little written.

I started off painting my kabals with the Incubi Darkness scheme and really struggled due to being red/green colour blind. I just couldn't work with the dark greens against a black undercoat. Highlighting was like painting blindfolded for me...so I settled on a purple scheme.

I noticed that the Kabal that looks most like my colour scheme is the Kabal of the Last Hatred and after reading what I can on them they sound pretty cool. Very sick minded with an interest in "binding a soul to the cadaver from which it would usually depart at the moment of death" which sounds very cool almost like zombies/living dead and that sits really well with how I love the Haemy and Wrack models and I always intended to use them but now I can pretend that my Wracks are the living dead creations of the Kabal.
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 11:31

Go Dying Sun!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 11:44

- Kabal of the Severed : "Realspace exiles" : every single unit of your army has to be fielded in a vehicle. No beasts, no mandrakes, no scourges allowed (unless in a tantalus). Your entire army gains deep strike.

- Kabal of the Flayed Skull : "Lords of Speed" : your reavers, VRB and RWJF can deal 1d3 mortal wounds when they advance over an enemy unit.

- Kabal of the Black Heart : "Unchallenged authority" : if an Archon (or Vect) is your warlord, he counts as being a Succubus, an Archon, and an Haemonculus when it comes down to auras. Your opponent scores twice the victory points for killing him.

- Kabal of the Broken Sigil : "Bringers of discord" : When one of your units uses all its weapons against the same enemy unit, that unit suffers -1 LD until the end of the current turn. That modifier can be stacked 4 times. The Broken Sigil cannot benefit from Auras.

- Kabal of the Blackened Tear : "Masters of poison" : your kabalites gain poisoned cc weapons.

- Kabal of the Baleful Glaze : "Sabotaged" : Your Kabalite trueborns can have 1 Haywire blaster per 5 models. Your trueborns can have up to 4 haywire blasters. Any vehicle damaged by your haywire blasters has a -1 modifier to hit on ranged attacks until the beginning of your next turn, stackable as much as you want (a 6 is always a hit). Note : this rule should be in the standard version of the HB.

- Kabal of the Slashed Eye : "Assassins" : At the beginning of the game, select any enemy character. Roll 5d6. For every roll of 3+, he suffers a mortal wound.
You may not field Hellions or Beasts in this Kabal.

- Kabal of the Last Hatred : "Masters of torture" : you start the game at the second step of the Power from Patience chart.



- Cult of the Impaled : Your incubi gain the "Cult" keyword.

- Cult of the Cursed Blade : Special Stratagem : 1 CP, target Cult unit gains the poisoned special rule until the end of the turn.

- Cult of the Red Grief : "Battle acrobats" : Any Wyches unit you have that starts its movement phase entirely within 3" of a Reavers/Hellions squad can "share a ride" with it. Move the Hellions/Reavers squad, then redeploy your Wyches squad entirely within 3" of it. Both units cannot move any further this turn, although they still can assault if the Reavers/Hellions didn't advance.
This would allow a foot-slogging wych unit to move 34" in a single turn if embarked in an Advancing Reavers squads with +2mvt drugs.

- Cult of Strife : "Mistress of Slaugther" when you roll a 6 to hit in CC with one of your Cult model, it gains an additionnal attack.

- Cult of the Seventh Woe "Expanded Bestiary" : you may field Genestealers and Carnifexes in your beast packs. They are affected by your beastmasters auras.




- Prophets of flesh : "Haruspices" : Your Haemonculi become lvl 1 psychers.

- The Hex : your coven units gain a -1 LD debuff (12" range) that stacks 4 times.

- The Altered : your Ichor Injector deal mortal wounds on 4+. "Corpsethief claw" : if you score first blood with one Coven unit, you gain double VP.

- The Everspiral/Ebon sting : your Engines regain 1 HP per turn.

- The Dark Creed : Mandrakes become Coven units. For 35pts, your Haemy can become a Mandrake, and gains "Shrouded from sight", "From out of the shadows" and a baleblast.

- The Children of bone : your grotesques gain Rampage (+1d3 attacks when outnumbered).


I'm not saying my propositions are balanced, or even good. But the fluff is rich, and i think it could easily be done to establish rules for 4-6 special of each Coven, Kabals and Cults.

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Last edited by Mppqlmd on Tue Sep 12 2017, 14:55; edited 3 times in total
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 12:22

That's excellent and just goes to show what could be done with the Dark Eldar...fingers crossed for more of this!
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 12:58

Also i think it's about time to make the lesser races know and fear the names of our Kabals, Cults and Covens!!!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 14:27

Marrath wrote:
Also i think it's about time to make the lesser races know and fear the names of our Kabals, Cults and Covens!!!

Absolutly. The fact that little know the difference between the Kabals should not discourage GW from giving them different abilities : on the contrary, it's about time they showed some love and interest for the great lore that lies unknown.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 15:08

Out of interest does anyone know of any other good sources of information on the Kabal of the Last Hatred?
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 15:14

The lack of fluff is fluff itself!

The only people that live to tell the tale of DE are now slaves!
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 15:51

I also would like to know more about the kabal of the last hatred. Considering my kabal is panted as such but names kabal of the last shadow!
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 18:23

FuelDrop wrote:
So Ashcrow, if you had your pick what kabals ect would we have and what would their focuses be?

Realistically I would guess Kabal: Black Heart, and Poisoned Tongue. They're two of the biggest lore focused kabals. BH is just a given due to everything being painted as it in most GW things, Vect being its leader and so on. Oddly enough, I think there would be more interesting picks though, or to add. Such as Flayed skull with its boasting of rwjf, voidravens, and reavers. It could give reavers kabal and hopefully archons will have an aura something of worth. Also a strategem to add +6" to their movement as theyre known to be hellish fast. Baleful Gaze also has a typical way of doing work in the fluff, and enough fluff to qualify them. Something of the sort as adding kabal to beasts and again, that could be awesome. Maybe a strategem to allow beasts to attack again at the end of the fight phase just like the Forge world previewed today has. My boys, the Lords, are well known for their raiders and ravagers and their insanely good quality. Perhaps giving them reroll 1's to hit or save of Raiders and ravagers and a strategem that allows Lords Raiders and Ravagers to fire twice if they didn't move in the movement phase. Similar to the Salamanders.

Witch Cults, I think the first one is obvious with the Cult of Strife. The second I'd guess Red Grief, probably buffing or altering the way Hellions, Reavers, and Venoms work.

H. Covens, again the obvious one here would be the one with a correlation to a special character, that being Prophets of flesh. I could see them getting similar rules to 7th, where the pain table is at +1. The other one, I'm not sure. Not even a guess, ok maybe a guess, probably the coven of 12. I only think that because of the paint scheme on the back of the wracks box. Covens, in lore, tend to have similar battle strategies because there are just not many coven units in our dex. This one has lots of grots and wracks! Well, now this one has lots of grots and wracks plus some pain engines!

Just some fun thoughts.

Subsanity wrote:
I also would like to know more about the kabal of the last hatred. Considering my kabal is panted as such but names kabal of the last shadow!

Sadly there isnt much. I almost painted my army up as them because what little fluff they had (which was cool and that scheme is sick) in the painting book but it was kind all I could find. Essentially they play with the forbidden arts and do coven necromancy stuff.
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 18:47

If they do decide to go down the sort of chapter tactic route, I hope they give a generic option similar to CSM renegade chapters.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 19:11

I'll be that guy and address the huge screaming bleeding elephant in the thread.
Would having the Death Guard / Gray Knights treatment be that bad?
Having one trait and one stratagem slightly different and call it fluff would be really that important?
I'd be perfectly fine having a standard set of traits and stratagems and choose what fits the situation the best.
I personally never saw the dark eldar as being so single minded in their kabal strategies as, say, a craftworld would be.

So the different trails and stratagems I'd put in the book would not be based on different kabals/cults/covens, but rather on the warlord.
If the warlord is an archon you get kabal traits and stratagems, if your warlord is an heamy you get coven stuff, like in the coven supplement from 7th.
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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 19:37

It couldn't be any worse than what we have now. I honestly see us getting something more along the lines of the ad mech book coming out.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 19:40

From what I saw ad mech is getting variations based on forgeworlds, so more similar to SM and CSM.
That is what I expect from craftworld, not from us.
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 19:53

I think it's very unlikely that there won't be some specialization between coven, kabal, and cult. They have very different flavors of fluff and even specific looking models for said flavors. We even have 3 different unit specifications in our keywords. If it's as vanilla as you ponder, I sincerely doubt it will be as vanilla as the grey knights. Maybe somewhere inbetween.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 20:03

We are on the same page then, as I wrote before

Logan Frost wrote:
the different trails and stratagems I'd put in the book would not be based on different kabals/cults/covens, but rather on the warlord.
If the warlord is an archon you get kabal traits and stratagems, if your warlord is an heamy you get coven stuff, like in the coven supplement from 7th.

I don't see two different variations per kabal, cult and coven so plausible, but one variation per subfaction is quite probable.
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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: Army themes   Tue Sep 12 2017, 20:29

Where I differ from one to two is again looking at the ad mech book. They're getting 4 or 5 I think. There's only a little bit of lore, I'm talking a small box in a corner for some of these sub mechanicus factions. It's possible that our guys and gals sub factions could get a special rule and like one special strategem.

I agree it will likely be just the big 3. However, if we do get kabals and whatnot it will be mighty cool and I don't think it's too farfetched.
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