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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Sat Sep 16 2017, 05:18

@amishprn86 wrote:
Best list? Wait like 1-2 months for IG to get nerfed.
Pretty much. Their army is currently broken, and it's no use to scratch our head until we hit the brain to find a way to counter them. There is none, we just have to wait for the nerf.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Wed Sep 20 2017, 18:55

Hey so question for y'all. I promised awhile ago that I'd do the defensive stats for our units getting shot by lasguns and I'm stuck at a conundrum.

I was going to do a Points per Wound like I did for our units on offense, but ran into a bit of a fork in the road as I'm doing this. Previously, it was a bunch of different units against one target. Fairly simple, 1 wound is 1 dead model. This time though, I'm doing 1 unit attacking a bunch of different units. The problem I run into then, is that some units have multiple wounds. Razor Wing Flocks is a good example of this. It takes 9 points of conscripts to cause 1 wound to RWF, but the RWF has 4 wounds per model. Thus it would take 36 points of conscripts to down 1 RWF. I can then technically do 14 pts of RWF / 36pts of conscripts to get the point efficiency of such an endeavor.

So should I stick to my points/wound thing or should I go point efficiency instead when comparing our units overall for Offense+Defense?

Also, are conscripts 4+ BS or 5+? (defensive data is NOW 5+)

(EDIT) I'll put up the data and y'all can tell me what y'all like.

Some additions to the Offense section:

best situation offensively:
Talos    16.67 Points/Wound -> ~8.9 Dead Conscripts -> 26.63 points dead -> 1pt Talos = 0.18pts Conscripts, 5.56 rounds, best case scenario (shooting included) to get points back. Full table shown below.


*NEW* Defensive Stats: (worst case scenario)
2nd column:  # of Lasgun shots to kill 1 model @BS4+
3rd column: # of Lasgun shots to kill 1 model @BS5+
3rd column: Shots Can Take per 1 point


Talos_____303 ____453.6___2.05
Cronos____303____453.6___2.63
RWF______12.0____18.0___0.86
BB _______5.76___8.64___0.44
Hellions____7.20___10.8___0.42
Incubi_____14.4___21.6___0.80
Grots______32.4___48.6___1.05
Khymerae__9.00___13.5___0.90

Best Case Scenario, Toughness drugs(Wyches+Hellions), Haemy nearby(Grots)
Column 2: # of Lasgun shots to kill Model
Column 3: Points of conscripts per 1 wound casued(compare to our offense P/W)
Column 4: Point Efficiency (Point value of target / Points of Conscripts to kill model) lower = good for us. Technically, the conscript model will get that value back, points wise, when it shoots at a target. Example: shooting at a Blood Bride will return 0.33 points used on the Conscript on average through damaging the BB. This is with a single shot. Double the value when in rapid fire range. And then there's FRFSRF... Pretty strong levels of bang for their buck from a single turn.

Talos_____453.6 shots____194.4pts___0.11
Cronos____453.6 shots____194.4pts___0.08
RWF______18.0 shots____13.50 pts____0.26
BB _______12.96 shots___38.88 pts____0.33
Hellions____16.2 shots___48.60pts____0.35
Incubi_____21.6 shots___64.80pts____0.28
Grots______97. shots___97.20pts____0.11
Khymerae__13.5shots ___40.50 pts____0.25

In comparison here's our offensive efficiencies:
Column 2: Points of model per 1 wound on Conscripts
Column 3: Points of model per points of wounds caused on Conscripts.
Column 4: The inverse of Column 3 or how many rounds of perfect situation and average rolls to make the Model's points back. (Shooting has been factored in, so sustained melee will results in lower wounds caused or a larger value in Col. 4 in some cases.)

Talos_____16.67 ____0.18___5.56
Cronos____29.00____0.10___9.67
RWF______14.18____0.21___4.73
BB _______8.56_____0.35___2.85
Hellions____9.77____0.31___3.26
Incubi_____10.8____0.28___3.60
Grots_____11.48____0.26___3.83
Khymerae__8.44____0.36___2.81

I hope you enjoyed! I'll try to put together the Offense/Defense stats in a logical manner and come back with our best unit for anti horde. SoonTM

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Last edited by Barrywise on Thu Sep 21 2017, 17:50; edited 1 time in total
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 21 2017, 00:37

Conscripts are 5+ BS.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 21 2017, 00:50

I think we need to consider the tragic context of Militarum's ability to bring literally every tool possible and for a very fair price in points.

That means that there are plenty of guns well tooled to remove efficiently what lasguns can't as efficiently. A Militarum player will just chip off wounds from your vehicles and then just finish them off with some lasguns and wipe out the survivors with more lasguns. They're not going to blow their lasguns right away before they expend their more limited special weapons.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 21 2017, 01:13

Friggin A. I'll fix that over the weekend, double exam duty is calling me. Until then fellow Archons.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 21 2017, 09:44

It would be nice if the orders would only effect models in range not units.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 21 2017, 18:05

Updated so Conscripts are shooting at 5+ and not 4+ (whoops)

here's the "Best Scenario" defensive stats again

Talos_____453.6 shots____194.4pts___0.11
Cronos____453.6 shots____194.4pts___0.08
RWF______18.0 shots____13.50 pts____0.26
BB _______12.96 shots___38.88 pts____0.33
Hellions____16.2 shots___48.60pts____0.35
Incubi_____21.6 shots___64.80pts____0.28
Grots______97. shots___97.20pts____0.11
Khymerae__13.5shots ___40.50 pts____0.25

Pretty interesting that in the last column, for Conscript efficiency when shooting at target unit, Grots and Talos are equal in this case, T6 in both cases but Talos has a 3+ armor save. Only reason that the Cronos is so low is because of how its 115 pts fully kitted out compared to the Talos 148 full kit.

I'll get around to the overall stats eventually but I'd still say that Coven seem to be a decent choice against Conscripts/Hordes. Too bad as soon as you look at multiwound weapons your entire army is gone.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Mon Sep 25 2017, 10:41

Good news...

Imperial Guard Codex is next and this is what they had to say on Conscripts...

"Similarly, the codex is set to diversify Astra Militarum lists with tweaks to rules and points aimed at putting each unit on an even footing. Conscripts, for example, have been changed to better reflect their inferior discipline compared to professional soldiers. It’s not just about rules, either – the new codex contains loads of new background and art, including a look at some of the more unusual regiments of the 41st Millennium and advice on how you might want to convert them."

We have been discussing the problem for a bit, and I think we agreed it was the free pass morale phase that really made this unit OP...looks like this will be fixed.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 00:40

I wouldn't get your hopes up yet, they could be talking about morale but they could just as easily be talking about removing Conscripts' ability to execute Orders. Either's fine with me!
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 00:50

I think either of those would be good enough.
In both cases you pretty much half the effectiveness of the unit (either half the offensive power if they cannot execute orders) or half the survivability (if they can run away). They are to good now, but if one of them is drastically lowered (I assume orders) then they suddenly become just bubble wrap, good decent cheap bubble wrap. But without the large number of shots it is just bubble wrap and thus ok. if they cannot have either anymore then there is no reason to take a conscript over a normal guardsman ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 04:22

I think the important thing is that GW actually mentioned the unit specifically...which means you can guarantee they will be either more expensive in the form of having to take a high points squad leader perhaps, or they don't auto pass morale which I think will make them a lot weaker!
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 05:56

Okay, quick thing: have you guys seen the GW release of the Catachan army doctrine? if that applies to conscripts, allowing them to field cheap, large units of S 4... which is a significant deal, even if they can no longer take orders. If they get a psychic power that gives the a boost to hit (not certain, but definitely possible), we might have a rather nasty melee monster on our hands which we are ill equipped to deal with.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 06:00

Honestly, i'm less concerned with CC conscript that hit at S4 than with shooty conscripts that fire 4 times.

First, our solutions for conscripts are mostly CC-oriented. The conscripts want to bring it mano-a-mano ? That's fine for me Very Happy

Secondly... bring CF or grotesques (although this will have to wait for the codex to fix them first), and the +1 S would pass unnoticed. We have a VERY healthy access to T5.

So it's definitly a very strong buff, but it will not make them as strong as recieving orders.



Edit : i just checked that info. +1 S AND LD, and reroll the amount of shots delivered by blasts and templates... Looks like the A. M. will stay a meta army for some time Smile

I love the "Deadly traps" stratagems : 1d3 mortal wounds on 4+ if they recieve a charge while being in cover. It's very good design. Not that strong, but very disuasive. I like it.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 06:06

An Interesting article on conscripts over at 3plusplus. The part about selective casualty removal is pretty powerful.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 06:10

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Honestly, i'm less concerned with CC conscript that hit at S4 than with shooty conscripts that fire 4 times.

First, our solutions for conscripts are mostly CC-oriented. The conscripts want to bring it mano-a-mano ? That's fine for me Very Happy

Secondly... bring CF or grotesques (although this will have to wait for the codex to fix them first), and the +1 S would pass unnoticed. We have a VERY healthy access to T5.

So it's definitly a very strong buff, but it will not make them as strong as recieving orders.



Edit : i just checked that info. +1 S AND LD, and reroll the amount of shots delivered by blasts and templates... Looks like the A. M. will stay a meta army for some time Smile

Here's the thing. We have healthy access to T5, and we use our haemies to bring it up to beautiful beautiful T6. S4 negates the advantage of being able to do that, while also hurting all our non-coven options for meleeing them by increasing the damage of their counterattacks.
As someone who has no coven units at all, I consider this to be a significant factor when considering whether to bring any melee to the party.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 06:37

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Honestly, i'm less concerned with CC conscript that hit at S4 than with shooty conscripts that fire 4 times.

First, our solutions for conscripts are mostly CC-oriented. The conscripts want to bring it mano-a-mano ? That's fine for me Very Happy

Secondly... bring CF or grotesques (although this will have to wait for the codex to fix them first), and the +1 S would pass unnoticed. We have a VERY healthy access to T5.

So it's definitly a very strong buff, but it will not make them as strong as recieving orders.



Edit : i just checked that info. +1 S AND LD, and reroll the amount of shots delivered by blasts and templates... Looks like the A. M. will stay a meta army for some time Smile

Here's the thing. We have healthy access to T5, and we use our haemies to bring it up to beautiful beautiful T6. S4 negates the advantage of being able to do that, while also hurting all our non-coven options for meleeing them by increasing the damage of their counterattacks.
As someone who has no coven units at all, I consider this to be a significant factor when considering whether to bring any melee to the party.

So take CF like he said
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 07:22

It doesnt matter b.c they will heavily limit the Conscripts or make them take morals.....

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 07:58

@amishprn86 wrote:
It doesnt matter b.c they will heavily limit the Conscripts or make them take morals.....

Exactly, thats why I shared the GW remark. The problem is going to be reduced in a matter of weeks so its on to the next problem lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 11:07

Guys, conscripts are not going to be useless. At all. They are probably not going to be the most effective unit in the game (which they are now), but they'll still be a solid unit for any A. M. army.

I think it's pretty interesting from GW's part to try and make the conscripts a CC unit through the Catachan Regiment. Not convinced it could work, but it's definitly an interesting try, and i'm hella sure that it will make them more fun to play against than the current ones.

So i won't cry and call OP. It's a very good regiment rule, and it's going to make Catachans very fun to play. But this is nowhere near the "Play conscripts and win" that we all know now.



@Fueldrop : Honestly, Catachan concripts are not going to kill Grotesques in CC (not that we play Grotesques much...). But Wracks and CF are going to be very effective against Catachan, so it's not going to be our impossible-to-beat nemesis. Unlike, you know, the current conscripts.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 11:25

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Guys, conscripts are not going to be useless. At all. They are probably not going to be the most effective unit in the game (which they are now), but they'll still be a solid unit for any A. M. army.

I think it's pretty interesting from GW's part to try and make the conscripts a CC unit through the Catachan Regiment. Not convinced it could work, but it's definitly an interesting try, and i'm hella sure that it will make them more fun to play against than the current ones.

So i won't cry and call OP. It's a very good regiment rule, and it's going to make Catachans very fun to play. But this is nowhere near the "Play conscripts and win" that we all know now.



@Fueldrop : Honestly, Catachan concripts are not going to kill Grotesques in CC (not that we play Grotesques much...). But Wracks and CF are going to be very effective against Catachan, so it's not going to be our impossible-to-beat nemesis. Unlike, you know, the current conscripts.

Conscripts wont be scary at all compare to Leman Russ's Double shooting..... That means Every Main gun on those are 1/2 the cost in a round about way.

"Grinding Advance now allows any Leman Russ moving at under half its allotted Move value to fire its primary weapon TWICE, while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move. Armoured regiments – in the Mordians and beyond – are going to be very dangerous indeed in the new codex."

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 11:40

Mordian being able to hit overwatch on 4+ is definitly going to be tough for my orks.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 11:57

Having a Plasma squad able to target characters is going to be nuts!!

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 12:04

Punisher cannon firing twice. Outch
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 12:05

I honestly enjoy what i'm seeing so far with (other factions) sub-factions. It brings a lot of choices, customization and tactical-depth. It definitly creates a powercreep though, since those buffs come for free. But if they manage to release all codices fast, and then let the game be played for a few years, this might actualy be a very fun edition.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 12:08

Yeah I'm with @Mppqlmd if our release comes with rules like this then it's going to be a blast.

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