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Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 21:52

Agreed. I expect we will see coven, cults, and kabals get their own bonuses when we get our codex.

Even if they nerf conscripts the other things guard are getting will more than make up for it.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 21:57

Strength 4 Militarum units? Yeah I don't really care. They're still just as worthless against vehicles soaking Overwatch, and they still die in droves to actual dedicated combat units that go after them without being wildly more efficient at killing things.

There's never going to be an occasion where the fact that Catachans are S4 is going to deter me from throwing my Incubi or Khymerae at them, and any time it'd be unwise to charge them I'd wager it's for the exact reasons as if they were S3: there's just WAY too many to kill and safely survive a counter-attack or just a Fall Back and retaliative shooting phase. The S4 is not ideal obviously but I think this is a pretty fair and even-handed ability overall (including re-rolling random dice).
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 22:11

@lcfr wrote:
Strength 4 Militarum units? Yeah I don't really care. They're still just as worthless against vehicles soaking Overwatch, and they still die in droves to actual dedicated combat units that go after them without being wildly more efficient at killing things.

There's never going to be an occasion where the fact that Catachans are S4 is going to deter me from throwing my Incubi or Khymerae at them, and any time it'd be unwise to charge them I'd wager it's for the exact reasons as if they were S3: there's just WAY too many to kill and safely survive a counter-attack or just a Fall Back and retaliative shooting phase. The S4 is not ideal obviously but I think this is a pretty fair and even-handed ability overall (including re-rolling random dice).  

Not DE but it helps against others, it makes charging SM vehicles into risky, T7 vehicles and S3 to S4 go from needing 6's to 5's.

S4 is a big difference when you have 30 attacks, it dbl's the wounds, literally.

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Deris87
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 22:56

I think S4 is a nice perk for Catachans that makes them a credible melee threat to more targets, but it's not so strong people are going to suddenly be building melee-centric armies of Catachans. They'll do more damage when they get charged, and following up a round of shooting by charging in to mop up the survivors becomes a much more plausible tactic. It's still pretty far from a huge game breaker (certainly not on the level of their current morale/Orders issues).
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Tue Sep 26 2017, 23:05

@Deris87 wrote:
I think S4 is a nice perk for Catachans that makes them a credible melee threat to more targets, but it's not so strong people are going to suddenly be building melee-centric armies of Catachans. They'll do more damage when they get charged, and following up a round of shooting by charging in to mop up the survivors becomes a much more plausible tactic. It's still pretty far from a huge game breaker (certainly not on the level of their current morale/Orders issues).

Early 7th they did and it won many ITC tournaments, but thats b.c they could hide a bunch of Power Axe guys in them as well. And the 3-4 almost unkillable characters were not a thing yet.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 15:26

Conscripts now only obey orders on a 4+ and can only be taken in units of 20-30.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 15:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Conscripts now only obey orders on a 4+ and can only be taken in units of 20-30.

I can't help but think that we're still going to have an incredibly hard time dealing with them. They won't be shredding us quite as fast, sure, but we don't have any good ways to get rid of that many bodies.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 16:00

This is worrying because while this means that they may not obey orders 50% of the time, they will still be able to ignore morale with a Commissar near...which I think was a large part of the problem.

Have you seen the "Send in the next wave" strategem? 1CP to revive a destroyed unit! So you have finally taken care of the 30 Conscripts and boom, 1 CP and they are back! Holy crap how annoying LOL
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 16:04

Yeah, 135 splinter shots to take out a 30-man Conscript unit seems extreme. That's nearly 500 points of Kabalite Warriors to take out a 90 point squad of chaff which can come back at full strength for just 1CP!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 16:17

Just remember, the numbers are the same and now tanks just got better............

The 4+ to fail almost isnt that big of a problem, especially since now units are 30mans, so they will just take 2x25 mans instead of 1x50man, so if it fails on 1 unit, it wont on other.

This isnt a nerf at all really....

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 16:54

The strategem is showing to be 2CP, plus they have to come in within 6" from the table edge and 9" away from enemy models.  So that will help a little bit.  Also, it is only for Valhallan armies, so I'm not exactly sure about how prevalent they are going to be (I haven't read much about the different factions yet).

Also a Valhallan army can receive an order to fire at an enemy that is engaged in CC.  Which is even more reason to just stick to our previous tactic of avoiding conscript spam.

Now the only thing left that we can hope for is that there will be a points increase for the conscripts.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 17:09

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

Have you seen the "Send in the next wave" strategem?  1CP to revive a destroyed unit!  So you have finally taken care of the 30 Conscripts and boom, 1 CP and they are back!  Holy crap how annoying LOL

2 CP. I'm waiting for FAQ, as RAW this costs reinforcement points, making it uterly pointless.

I rate the teased regiments as following : Valhalla (if the "Next wave" doesn't cost reinforcement points) - Mordian (for the sniper rule) - Catachan - Vostroya (not that great tbh).

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 17:41

The Chaos Cultist has the same rule and it does not use reinforcements points.

But i think its once per game tho. I cant remember.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 19:03

having all those conscripts walking back up the field might not be the biggest problem (expecially since half the time they get no order.

I think the 50% orders is a huge thing actually. It means conscripts become a lot less reliable.
No more knowing you can get out of combat or advance and still fire at full strength.

And half the unit size makes a huge difference. 20 man is not enough in most cases, sure you need twice as many leaders to keep them in line, but the major advantage is that with units of 20-30 bubble wrapping a comissar halfway acros the board behind some terrain becomes a lot harder.

I think conscripts are still good, and we still have the issue that we have problems with hordes and thus with conscripts, but I think the biggest issues of the conscripts themselves where they were an autopick might have changed a little bit. (expecially with the rumours of being able to join up normal guard squads.)
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 20:11

I think there's a lot that people are missing about Conscripts.

Point for point, the offensive potential between Conscripts and Guardsmen is close enough to be negligible.

The problem that Conscripts pose is that,
1) They have large unit sizes
2) They're cheap
3) They're godforsakenly hard to kill
4) They're immune to morale
5) They occupy a flatly stupid amount of space.

Conscripts aren't dangerous because they have orders, they're dangerous because 150 points of them will give you almost total control of the board, while being able to hold objectives better than anything other than another horde, and being nearly impossible to remove from said objective is where their strength lies. The ability to roll a hellishly large number of dice is just icing on the cake.

Going off the list above, to be a balanced, but still competitive, Unit, they can take three of those items. Taking away something that was never their strong suit to begin with will do practically nothing to deter their use or effectiveness.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 20:36

I kinda disagree with that.
If Conscripts didn't hit like a ton of bricks, and were just dead bodies lying around and taking space, we could counter them with super-offensive units : khymeras, wyches, etc.

But it's not the case, because conscript kill them faster then they get killed.

So to me that's the current problem : conscript are incredibly difficult to kill, and hit hard enough to OS any squad that would have a chance to deal them consistent damage. Nerfing orders and reducing their lines to 30 kinda helps, although it's not exactly enough in my book...

Not to mention that Valhallans and Vostroyans are going to light our wyches up without even needing to fall back, which is outrageous.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 22:37

Which they could already do with the "get back in the fight" order it's just now they don't need to fall back ... However I believe the Valhallans one can only be used by a unit that isn't within 1" of an enemy unit so that one we can stop by simply charging their entire army ... But the Vostroyans one will be a bit more difficult to deal with ... As it is the opposite in that the unit must be within 1" of an enemy unit and can only shoot that unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Thu Sep 28 2017, 22:40

They don't need to fall back... and thus ignore the 50% survival chance of the wyches from "No escape"... which is a pretty big deal.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Fri Sep 29 2017, 00:19

I mean, really our crappy special weapons are what's letting us down here. Most armies have an option for flamer spam, be it a squad of Sternguard with combi-flamers drop-podding in, Havocs and chosen or even chaos bikers, burna boyz, special weapons squads, ect.

Even though these are potentially expensive options they are very good at what they do: killing chaff units quickly and efficiently. Our options are the shredder, which is great at wounding but doesn't put out enough shots for that to matter, or the liquifier which cannot be taken en mass and is designed with this bassakwards idea of being good at penetrating armour while being bad at actually wounding, which is exactly wrong for an anti-horde weapon.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Anti hoard list building challenge    Fri Sep 29 2017, 09:21

At least if they bring the Conscripts back with the CP's they won't be in range of a Commissar
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