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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 15:06

Has anyone seen the stats for some of the new Death Guard vehicles?

They have a fast attack vehicle that comes stock with a missile launcher, multi-melta plus a ranged assault weapon with D3 S6 hits and a decent close combat weapon for good measure.

They don't suffer any pens for moving and firing and have some pretty tasty rules. All of this for 85 points!

WOW!

Now I don't mind DE being a glass cannon...but sometimes I am wondering, where is the cannon?

I know I shouldn't do this but when you compare a Venom with x2 SC for 95 points...it seems rather overpriced in comparison.

For what its worth the Death Guard look like they are going to be a very fun army.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 15:13

The Venom is ridiculously overpriced for the benefits it brings in 8e. Speed is their only real benefit and that's handicapped by the short range of its guns and the fact that passengers have to disembark before it moves.

Death Guard looks fluffy and powerful, although I'm a little concerned with Deathshrouds making Mortarion effectively immortal - certainly long enough for him to get into range to butcher entire armies.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 15:42

I feel that Death Guard have so many cool rules and devastating weapons that we look bland and weak in comparison...they have a bad ass flamer that makes me very jealous.

I know that people will say wait until we have our codex...but why have so many of our weapons ended up so bad?

Yes we have Dark Lances. They are great. And yes poison wounds MC on 4+ which again is great.

But we have very little else...no plasma, no decent melta, no high damage CC weapons. Shredder, Heat Lance, Haywire, Splinter Cannon all crap.

DE players will soon get bored of spamming Dark Lances...the best thing about planning a list is having the variety to put together something different.
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 15:49

The AoE mortal wounds seems very Anti-Ynnari to me. Also them having a 4+ Feel no Pain slightly angers me, but it makes more sense fluff-wise.

And they got new units to expand their fluff. I'm jealous but eagerly awaiting what happens with us.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 17:45

Quote :
DE players will soon get bored of spamming Dark Lances...the best thing about planning a list is having the variety to put together something different.
They've been doing it for a long time, though. Darklight kinda defines the army.

But i have to agree, our index wasn't done by a very competent mind, and if some weapons allow us to actually be powerful, 70-80% of the entries are lackluster if not useless.

And codex releases are, more than ever, a powerhouse fiesta, which gives us good reasons to be envious.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 17:54

I kinda feel as if, and I shouldn't be surprised, but GW have a load of new minis to sell so they make them very powerful. People say I've gotta have some of those, spend a lot of money, Death Guard will potentially be a large power in 8th just to sell the minis.

But if GW keep doing what they do, every army gets so powerful that the game suffers...then they refresh it all again with 9th and we start all over again.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 18:00

Actually, it's even worse than that, since they also do that with models :

7th edition, Dark Eldar got reaaaally bad, so we had to find good units in our codex. Reavers became very popular. GW decided that, since everyone wanted reavers, they would publish a box that mixes reavers (that everyone wanted) and hellions (that nobody wanted).

8th edition, they don't expect to sell reavers anymore (everybody has at least 12, if not 20 of those) so BOOM, reavers double in price, and they are out. Now the new jewel is RWJF, so quick ! grab your cash and go for them.

They've been doing it since the dawn of time. But i'd rather see them manipulate the powercreep to make quick cash, and stay in business, than see 40k collapse the way WHFB did (because of sales...)

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 18:08

You're so right...I was actually thinking this about the Venom. So many have been bought, sales must have dried up on them, and now I think they are likely to be used less in 8th than they were in 7th due to what I think is too high a points cost.

People will still use them, but they won't be spammed.

But the Sky Weaver...that's come out smelling of roses and people will be more inclined to buy one.

I just don't see how a company gets away with crap on people so often.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 18:30

Well, the problem is, people tend to consider that to be normal. Because every single company that expands a game system by adding content to it does the same, in variable proportions...

Be it with tabletop, CCG or MOBAs, if your new content doesn't look more powerful and more fun to play you might as well not release it at all...

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 18:52

I understand your point, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and that is that while trying to make new releases worth the purchase, they should not devalue that which has already been bought.

What are people hoping for in our codex? I would love an assassin of our own like the dark elves had in WHFB.
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 20:39

Death Guard looks really nice I think. It used to be my second (well, my first, to be honest) army but now I would have to get a lot of new stuff to be able to play them with anything but plague marines, I may not bother (I was thrilled when "Traitor legions" came out and I could field my Helfly, Warp flies, winged daemon prince and some chosen and havocs together with the marines and do OK). On the other hand, I just may... :-) I'm especially glad to see they have Dark lances (enthropy cannons) on their plaguecrawler thingy.
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 20:52

I have one model that is a counter point to this ... But I honestly agree with the argument that when a new model comes out it tends to have better rules or something that makes it more appealing to the players. But the model is the Voidraven Bomber ... It wasn't exactly impressive rules wise in 6th and 7th and I don't remember exactly when the release was but it was pretty close to the same time as our codex for that edition so they coulda made it really good to sell an expensive model that every DE army needs. Though I suppose that was the reaver jetbike. Maybe they will do something great with our 8th edition codex.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 21:03

Well obviously they don't do it for every single models (because if they did, they would control the sales less). They rarely promote more than 1 or 2 models per edition.

I would love to see a sales chart for the Brimstone/conscripts/Stormraven models.
And of course, there is the Zombicide murdercrowz. But Heavens forbid that another company makes profit from 40k !

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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 21:29

Yea the dumb "this new thing has to be better than the other things" creep is the reason I quit magic the gathering after 20 years. It just got insane. I'm confident our codex will bring awesome things and the chapter approved will fix a lot of our cost issues.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Mon Sep 11 2017, 21:41

I'm telling you, if you look at the points costs of the Death Guard vehicles and the weapons they are bringing then I'm afraid to say it but they cost less points than our choices and look far better options. Games are at their best when there is balance, no one liked that game that was impossible to win, as much as they lost interest in the game that was always too easy.

Balance is key...and having scanned over the rules and points in this latest codex I can tell you that as far as we are concerned there is no balance.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 00:29

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I'm telling you, if you look at the points costs of the Death Guard vehicles and the weapons they are bringing then I'm afraid to say it but they cost less points than our choices and look far better options. Games are at their best when there is balance, no one liked that game that was impossible to win, as much as they lost interest in the game that was always too easy.

Balance is key...and having scanned over the rules and points in this latest codex I can tell you that as far as we are concerned there is no balance.
What are you comparing it to? The indexes? If so then give up now, that was never the point as they were only ever get us by lists, the codexes should only be compared against each other and so far from what I gather the first three are fairly close in power.
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Deris87
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 00:47

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
All of this for 85 points!

85pts base. Just the multi-melta and missile launcher will push it towards the 140pt range, and possibly higher if the other two weapons cost anything. I still think it's kind of cheap considering how durable it is, but let's not look at it's base cost and say the sky is falling.
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 02:08

I haven't got the codex but from the sneak peek releases I saw things like 18" rapid fire range and ignoring move and shoot penalties for infantry/dreadnoughts.

Squad heavy weapons get a lot better if you can move and shoot at full efficiency, and 18" rapid fire is NICE!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 05:03

You mean this?
https://i.redd.it/ww3t4a2hz9lz.jpg

Im guessing around the 80-90ts before weapons, ML and MM are costly, so around the 150pts, this is a guess. But sense its only BS4+, 8 wounds, exploding on 4+, one of its abilities is only if 3 are taken, I cant see this being much more than a Rhino for its base cost.

Edit: I'd say its as good as our Ravager for DG, its going to be really tough to kill. But its not going to do a lot back to us.

Edit 2, stratagems
https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2017/9/11/ed82861d8fc3504913d84b3c5939c6c0_101312.jpg

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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 06:10

Reading over the blight hauler i am seeing it as a potent support option. The 7 inch bubble of cover is nothing to sniff at, and it provides decent fire mobile fire support and melee support.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 06:21

Yeah you'll see 2 in many armies and the new character giving +1 to DR having 2/3+ armor guys with a 5++/4+++

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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 06:57

Well good! I mean, they are the Death Guard. The entire point of the army is to be as tough as nails and infantry heavy, which as far as I can tell the rules rather encourage. It is great to see that their codex has embraced their fluff and built a powerful themed army.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 08:45

@Deris87 wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
All of this for 85 points!

85pts base. Just the multi-melta and missile launcher will push it towards the 140pt range, and possibly higher if the other two weapons cost anything. I still think it's kind of cheap considering how durable it is, but let's not look at it's base cost and say the sky is falling.

I read it as stock with a missile launcher and multi-melta for 85 points...I would of course be happy if it were the case that the vehicle was 85 points with weapon upgrades but I am not sure that is the case.


"The Myphitic Blight-hauler is a Fast Attack unit costing 85 points. It is Strength 6, Toughness 7, has 8 Wounds, 10″ Move, 3 Attacks, 3+ Save, 5+ Invulnerable Save, +1 to hit rolls when 3 or more in a unit, and it does not suffer penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

It is equipped with a missile launcher, multi melta, bile spurt, and gnashing maw. The bile spurt has a 12″ range, it’s Assault D3, Strength 6, AP -1, 1 Damage, and it’s a plague weapon. The gnashing maw is the Myphitic Blight-hauler’s melee plague weapon, Strength User, AP -2, and does 1 Damage.

The Myphitic Blight-hauler also has the following abilities:

Foul stench: Enemy units must subtract 1 from hit rolls when targeting this model in the fight phase.

Putrescent Fog: Friendly Death Guard Infantry units that are entirely within 7″ gain the benefit of cover when making armor saves rolls."
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 08:53

Huh. The Deaath Guard Termies get a bodyguard rule that kicks in on 2+ and lets them take the hit, rather than our mortal wound version.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Death Guard Codex   Tue Sep 12 2017, 08:59

Mortarion will be very hard to kill with 3 Deathshroud Terminators alongside him.

I hope that it doesnt seem like a am hating on Death Guard...I have a soft spot for Death Guard and I even have some of the very cool Rogue Trader Plague Marines. I love that GW has released a codex that gives them a unique playing style.

My main complaint is that it only takes one over enthusiastic codex release to break 8th edition...one codex that makes an army so strong can render most other armies obsolete overnight.

What is the score with the Chapter Approved release??? They said they would release rules for armies without a codex right?


Last edited by Dark Elf Dave on Tue Sep 12 2017, 09:05; edited 1 time in total
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