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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Sat Sep 09 2017, 03:32

Subsanity wrote:
Right now my most competitive list (that I own) is...

1x raider DL <-- About to switch to diss cannon
Archon blaster agonizer
1unite trueborn x4 blasters x2 dark lances pgl blast pistol agonizer

5xvenoms 2xSC
2xunits true born with 2xSC 2xblasters pgl blast pistol agonizer (been working well for me)
2xunit kab 1x blaster
1xunit incubi
2xunit scourge 4xdarklances

I am still waiting on GW to get some dang razorwings jetfighters but I NEED two so I can complete the list.

So far the rest of the list has done ok.

I took mandrakes out did do as well as I wanted but have 7.
I also have.
Farseer skyrunner have not used
Visiarch have not used
Yncarne have not used

A few things IMO

Visarch IMO isnt worth it, for the points and his damage, just take a unit of Incubi.

You have a large amount of points into the Trueborn unit, if you can split that unit into 2 and dedicate them for 2 roles, 1 Blaster for Anti-Heavy Infantry (terminators, sang-guard, Bike units etc.. thing with 2/3+ armor and 2 wounds) the 2nd unit as 2 DL's, Give one of them a Venom or Raider (venom for the Blasters keeps them cheap and more of a AI unit at that point) have the 2 DL's in a Raider.

i would drop the Splinter Cannons (kabals and venoms) guns to save points, its 30pts for basically 1-2 wounds a turn. It would be better to use those 30pts on a Dis Cannon which will do 2-4 wounds that has AP. 1 Dis Cannon is for sure better than 2 Splinter Cannons

The Yncarne needs to be built with it in mind, its a great model that takes a lot of practice to use, so the 1st few times you use it, it might not do so well so dont get discourage it needs practice. I think the Yncarne needs the most practice out of any unit in the game.

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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Sat Sep 09 2017, 16:16

Thanks! I will play around with the advice
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Sun Sep 10 2017, 22:34

i would like to see our splinters receive a S attribute but the kick of being poisoned would be reroll to wound. So rifles can be S3 cannons S4 and maybe add some numbers to how many shots they fire. That might deal with the 'anti monster meta' that we have right now
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Sun Sep 10 2017, 22:40

doriii wrote:
i would like to see our splinters receive a S attribute but the kick of being poisoned would be reroll to wound. So rifles can be S3 cannons S4 and maybe add some numbers to how many shots they fire. That might deal with the 'anti monster meta' that we have right now

That wouldnt help with MC's/Characters, Poison as of right now is strong against MC, its weak against infantry.

We wound T1, T2, T3, on a 4+ rather than Bolters or others with Str on a 3+. B.c we also dont have any ap it even more-so hurts against infantry, wounds on a 50/50 chance AND not breaking armor against 150+ t3/5+(6+) guys means we need something like 450 shots to kill them.

Being able to wound a T2/T3 guy on a 3+ would help us alot.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 01:59

I disagree. If you are T2 or T3 you're likely S2 or S3 and our entire army should be cutting you down in CC we just need more attacks on our basic units. We shouldn't be shooting guardsmen we should be punching them to death and getting bonus attacks for the amount of models we are in CC with. Basically we should have army-wide old rampage. I would absolutely pay 3 cp to do that.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 04:17

amorrowlyday wrote:
I disagree. If you are T2 or T3 you're likely S2 or S3 and our entire army should be cutting you down in CC we just need more attacks on our basic units. We shouldn't be shooting guardsmen we should be punching them to death and getting bonus attacks for the amount of models we are in CC with. Basically we should have army-wide old rampage. I would absolutely pay 3 cp to do that.

We should be shooting them.. and meleeing, DE does both.

But

doriii wrote:
i would like to see our splinters receive a S attribute but the kick of being poisoned would be reroll to wound. So rifles can be S3 cannons S4 and maybe add some numbers to how many shots they fire. That might deal with the 'anti monster meta' that we have right now

I was saying that splinter is better against ^ the red text, than it is against horde due to MC being S5+ 99% the time and are single models, a 50% chance to wound a t7 compare to bolters or other "Normal weapon" other armies have (Eldar S6, Tau S5, SM S4-6, Necrons S4-5 etc..) DE always been king at killing MC's given our basic weapon can Mass shoot them and wound reliably, then we have Blastersm Lances and Dis Cannons.

DE lacks Anti-infanty the most, our AI is in our Melee, im not denying that.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 08:27

what i mean is we are soooo good against MC's at a cost of being really bad vs weak units en masse. thats why i want a S attribute with a reroll. that would take a little away from MC power and add to AI
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 08:31

To be fair, I think we're really good in melee vs. mass weak units.

Even Kabalites aren't terrible in melee against Guard. I think that Wytches shine against cultists and their ilk or GEQ lol.

It's hard to find a balance however. Because every melee unit you bring, softens your shooting against said MC's...
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 18:55

Drakthul wrote:
To be fair, I think we're really good in melee vs. mass weak units.

Even Kabalites aren't terrible in melee against Guard. I think that Wytches shine against cultists and their ilk or GEQ lol.

It's hard to find a balance however. Because every melee unit you bring, softens your shooting against said MC's...

Yeah, with Beasts, Wyches, Wracks etc... our AI is mostly Melee.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 20:43

Is it a sound plan to bring 5x3 Razorwing flocks and 5 clawed fiends accompanied by a beast master vs a guard army? The rest of the army is 6 ravagers/reapers and 3 flyers.

I want to push everything in his face turn 1 and get him stuck in combat even with the ravagers. He doesnt have conscripts but 6 melta sentinels to screen him.

I wonder if its a stupid plan. I figured I cut the splinter weapons all together and try out the beasts as proxys.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Mon Sep 11 2017, 22:11

If he is vehicle heavy, then yes getting turn 1 combat with them is really good, luckily he is using melta sentinels and not the superiors flamer ones.

IG tanks weakness is being tied up, the players that win Nova against IG where using St. Celestine to turn 1 multi-charge 2-3 tanks (the Manticores and Wyverns).

Note tho, if you dont do enough damage to him, your melee units might die really fast., use cover to charge if you can out of LoS (No overwatch).

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 19:21

Splinter should never have been S* it's lazy and sloppy rule design. It's impossible to balance it fairly or cost it appropriately because it works so differently between different opponents. Another thing to consider is the poison 6+ to wound vehicles really screws the army over, I mean I faced mechanicus last night and trust me, wounding Kastellans on a 6+ sucks, vanguard shooting 3 shots a piece wounding a venom on a 5+ and causing 2 wounds on a 6 sucks even worse.

I have been hoping to get strength values back since the 5th edition book arrived and decided to make things different for difference sake. S3 on pistols and rifles and s4 on canons with shred vs infantry would go a long way in making our basic weapons worth while. Even last edition splinter weaponry wasn't all that awesome. A Vyper with dual shuricanons was always better IMO then a venom because I could take advantage of it's strength. Right now we pay through the nose for that poison rule which sucks vs infantry and is worse vs vehicles. I mean you guys must not play against other eldar or light vehicles much eh? Nothing sucks worse then knowing a guardsmen wounds a fething warbuggy on a 5 while your fishing for 6's or wasting valuable AT guns.

Our troops are also a fething mess. Wyches are worthless again. I forgot til today when I looked at the troops again how bad it was. Consider the differences between them just in the DE section. A wych is 9ppm for some awful reason, while a wrack is 10ppm and is better in just about every single way. The wrack has more attacks base (it matters for wargear) with better combat weapons on every member stock, higher toughness and a BETTER INVULN!@?... I'll take a 5++ all the time over a 4+ should I make it into combat any day. It's even more embarrassing when looking outside our faction. An ork boy is 6ppm!!!!! He fights better, survives better, and even has a stronger ranged attack! Wyches should have advance and charge and a 5++ with weapons that have rend 1 and rend 4 on a 6. They should gain attacks when they are outnumbered. Basically make them very lightweight genestealers and cost them appropriately. Warriors just need cheaper special weapons and for splinter weapons to change but I addressed this already.

Our characters are a damned joke! If your walking on a ledge looking for a reason to live I suggest never comparing our special characters (ALL 3 of them) to the 12 in the eldar section. My god, even Prince uriel and eldrad have 6 wounds and every character AGAIN including eldrad does multiple damage while drazar is a chump. Poor, poor uriel, he laways reknit wounds but not anymore, no thats too odd we better let every tech priest dominous in the game heal d3 damage a turn instead of the master of fleshcraft. I seriuously charged a dominous the other night with drazar and uriel and the dominous killed drazar in combat. You can't make that up boys. Drazar is flat worse in combat then a space nerd. The nerds axe is stronger and does 2 damage LMAO. Basicallly we need someone to advocate for some serious overhauls. Unfortunately the only person we have playing them seriously is Franky who literally only cares if he can spam 3-4 units which is why he thinks they are fine as is because he only spams RWJF, ravagers and transports. When our cheapest HQ is more expensive then a warlock who is better you know we are in trouble. Make the archon buff units like an autarch and let his court buff him so he can be a CC monster, only when supported.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 19:48

Quote :
The wrack has more attacks base (it matters for wargear)
They both have 2 attacks stock. The wyches lack the poison weaponry, but have drugs and access to reroll to wound on some of them. They also pay a lot for that special rule (that has a questionnable value).

Quote :
higher toughness
Well yeah, it's Coven.

Quote :
and a BETTER INVULN!@?... I'll take a 5++ all the time over a 4+ should I make it into combat any day.
No. 4++ is better than 5+. Whether you prefer having a 5++ all the time or a 4++ only in combat is your preference, but it's not objectively better.

Quote :
An ork boy is 6ppm!!!!! He fights better, survives better,
He does fight better (as he should, being an ork...). He's not more survivable (in 8th edition, the difference between a 5+ and a 6+ is huge, while T3 and T4 are not all that different. They also lack Inured to pain, so Kabalites are actualy sligthly more resilient than orks. And wyches got a 4++ so...).
Quote :
and even has a stronger ranged attack!
I'm sorry what ? You know BS3+ hits twice as much as BS5+ ? Comparing Shoota Boyz to Kabalites, for the same points : we have more range, and hit twice as much, for the same points. Sure, poison may suck. Hitting with your weapon rules, though.

Quote :
Warriors just need cheaper special weapons and for splinter weapons to change but I addressed this already.
While i agree that our special weapons need to be revamped, Kabalites don't need anything. For 7 points they have an incredible value, and i'm shocked to see so many people don't see that.

Quote :
Our characters are a damned joke!
Can't argue with that. It's nice that the Shadowfield is now free, but the lack of utility hurts.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 20:23

How you missed the fact that I said they have 2 attacks stock and pointed to gear is strange, I clearly stated it mattered for gear, which is does. 2 attacks on profile is better then 1 with a +1 for a knife.

You also missed the point in comparing the stats between wracks and wyches, I don't care if they are coven and one is cult, game balance is a thing. Wyches as they stand are at least 3ppm too expensive.

I can, will and so should others compare an ork boy to our own troops for the same reason as above. An ork boy hits less often but his weapon is better and everything else about him and he cost less. That's a major problem. Warriors should be more then a tax to take special weapons otherwise you end up where we stand now, better off taking trueborn or even scourge since they do it better. Why pay 7ppm for a guardsmen with better BS is his gun sucks? Fix the splinter weaponry and we are in agreement as they are now. I never said they should go down in points but rather their weapons come work better.

As far as your opinion that a 4++ being better then a 5++ all the time, I'll just disagree with your opinion and politely state that I think your wrong. 40k is a game that focuses on the shooting phase, having my save from turn 1 on no matter the circumstance is always going to be better the a save that works only in assault, in an edition where leaving combat is a thing. BTW I know wyches can lock dudes, but yet again it's a random roll off. So when I am comparing two things on paper, the one that performs without any stipulation usually wins. BTW, you know its a poor argument when the only way you get that save is if your still stuck in combat, meaning your not killing the enemy, meaning your failing at your roll.

For a wych to be worth taking it needs a lot of work. I'd basically make them 8ppm with a 5++ all the time, advance and charge and a rule called the penetrating blade. Models with this are AP-1 and on a roll of a 6 ap -4. All wych weapons work the same as now but with a big point decrease while shard nets/impaler remain at 5ppm and actually gain a rule for the net as follows: You may add one to the die roll to resolve the no escape rule, multiple nets are cumulative.

Blood brides would be 10ppm to justify the stat alteration.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 21:02

OP was talking about "if he should play something else for Competitive".

Honestly DE has many poor/mistakes in it for sure yes, but we also have some amazing things and honestly i wouldnt worry to much "yet" until our codex comes out.

GW on facebook has acknowledge that the HQs are poor, Wyches needs more help, Reavers are lacking, Many units are overcosted and Splinter cannon was miss handled. IDK what they will and wont fix but at least they said they agreed these have problems.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 21:15

I don't want to adress every single point i disagree with, so here's a summary of what i think :


I think most people on this forum agree that GW could (should ?) change a few things to make our army more interesting.

But, even though we're all frustrated players that accumulated anger all through 6th and 7th, let's not fool ourselves and think we are underpowered. We are certainly not underpowered, we are just out of meta. Our army is what is called a reactive meta army, that shines in counterpicks. If everybody plays Conscripts and such, we are useless. But we all know the conscript meta will not last, and what will be the solid picks then ? My bet is : Primaris and Death Guard. If i'm right, the DE will have a top-tier place in tournament, as a counterpick to the most popular armies.
But this is speculation, we'll have to wait and see how the Astra Militarum codex fixes the conscript issue.

What i know is that in the Index meta, Dark Eldars were not underpowered. Cheap very reliable infantry, one of the best Anti-tank in the game... DE hasn't been that strong since 4 editions, i think. Sure, HQs suck, and a lot of our entries are lackluster. But that's not what being competitive is about. If i can win a tournament by fielding the same unit over and over again ("conscripts" hum hum), then my army is good. Ravagers are good. Kabalites are good. Our planes are good. So in the "Index balance", DE were good.

So yes. Now some codices are out, and we're all envious of what they get. But guess what, that's the same for every faction that hasn't recieved a codex yet. Sure, Death Guard does everything we do for cheaper and better. They are basically one step ahead in terms of gameplay. But i don't think we should be crying for a buff on everything like it is 7th edition again. I had my fair share of victories in 7th, but in 8th ? Man, i haven't lost a single game in 8th edition... and i play (notably) against Astra Militarum regularly.

So what changes can we hope for ?
- We'll get the same as everyone : stratagems and special rules.
- We can hope for a massive HQ overhaul. That's the huge issue with our index, we have no good option for HQs.
- We can hope for a revamp of some weapons : HWB, Shredder, HL are high priority. Splinter weapons is going to stay the same, but we can hope for Splinter racks. Enhanced Aethersails could make a come back.
- We can hope for a slight buff on some units : reavers, Pain Engines, grotesques are the priority.

But i think staying positive is key here. And i think that, while asking for improvement is fair, refusing to acknowledge the improvements that have occured hurts our entire cause, as it makes us look, not like players that have objective ideas on the game and its balance, but like angry kids that get frustrated because they don't feel broken enough.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 21:29

Yes, the meta will change here really soon and for the best, Conscript spam isnt a bad thing, the problem is that they can spam 200 guys that ignore moral fully, and has cheap good Tanks with good cheap FW artillery.

GW at Nova said they are making FW a top priority to fix (along with codex's and chapter approve).

When the IG codex comes out and the FW faq, along with DG release we will see a shift in meta. That wont make our bad units good, BUT it will make our Niche units worth taking more often.

IDK about your Guys meta, but at mine we all play hyper competitive with good list, but not insane spam GT/ITC/Nova lists like Conscripts, DE for my area is the strongest army for sure, ive tabled a few people a few times on turn 3.

The difference tho is that i only play with like 5-6 different units and would love to play with venoms, wyches, grotesques heck all coven besides Kabals, raiders, ravagers and fliers.... i play with some beasts to mix it up, while they do good for me, i could just take another Bomber and be even better.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Tue Sep 12 2017, 21:36

I agree 100%.
We are one heck of an army, and there are few lists that we can't handle (but then again, the only way you can currently beat the conscript/brimstone spam is with more spam, so...).

But we lack diversity. It would be great to be allowed to play more than 20% of our index and stay competitive.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 01:25

Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter should never have been S* it's lazy and sloppy rule design. It's impossible to balance it fairly or cost it appropriately because it works so differently between different opponents. Another thing to consider is the poison 6+ to wound vehicles really screws the army over, I mean I faced mechanicus last night and trust me, wounding Kastellans on a 6+ sucks, vanguard shooting 3 shots a piece wounding a venom on a 5+ and causing 2 wounds on a 6 sucks even worse.

So would you like to go back to 3rd-4th edition, where splinter pistols/rifles were S3, and wounded marines on 5's? The fact that we can wound vehicles *at all* with splinter weapons is a boon, compared to what we are used to. Sure, wounding vehicles on 6+ sucks, but wounding heavy infantry, bikes, and MCs is on 4+ is nice... and frankly, that's what poison is designed for. I've managed to put enough poison wounds on vehicles in 8th through massed fire that I'm satisfied with it. We just need some added buff options, like splinter racks or characters that make the poison more virulent.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 01:38

krayd wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter should never have been S* it's lazy and sloppy rule design. It's impossible to balance it fairly or cost it appropriately because it works so differently between different opponents. Another thing to consider is the poison 6+ to wound vehicles really screws the army over, I mean I faced mechanicus last night and trust me, wounding Kastellans on a 6+ sucks, vanguard shooting 3 shots a piece wounding a venom on a 5+ and causing 2 wounds on a 6 sucks even worse.

So would you like to go back to 3rd-4th edition, where splinter pistols/rifles were S3, and wounded marines on 5's? The fact that we can wound vehicles *at all* with splinter weapons is a boon, compared to what we are used to. Sure, wounding vehicles on 6+ sucks, but wounding heavy infantry, bikes, and MCs is on 4+ is nice... and frankly, that's what poison is designed for. I've managed to put enough poison wounds on vehicles in 8th through massed fire that I'm satisfied with it. We just need some added buff options, like splinter racks or characters that make the poison more virulent.

Even if we wasnt poison, we would be able to wound vehicles, they made it clear that in 8th everything (well 99% of everything) can wound everything.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 02:07

I changed up the raider to have a dis cannon and dropped the 2 DLs. So with the archon and blaster born its doing better! I went ahead and kept the splinter cannons here is hope that we will get a poison buff or gem.

I do agree that is all we need is for more wounds to force more saves.

My biggest issue I believe is I planned the whole army as a fast venom, razorwing jetfighter and scourges. GW need to hurry up and get on the ball with razorwings.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 02:45

amishprn86 wrote:


The difference tho is that i only play with like 5-6 different units and would love to play with venoms, wyches, grotesques heck all coven besides Kabals, raiders, ravagers and fliers.... i play with some beasts to mix it up, while they do good for me, i could just take another Bomber and be even better.

This is my beef. I am not losing with DE and in fact I can easily win but I get extremely bored form spamming the 4-5 hyper efficient options and would love to play my award winning wyches for once without kneecapping my game play experience. I personally like to field armies that are highlander style but currently it's only possible if I don't try to even win and simply play to display my models. That's kind of depressing is all I am saying. So is are army competitive? Sure, definitely in fact but is it worth pointing out to a new collector that he will basically be fielding the same vehicle chasis and flier over and over and that's basically it? Of course, because it sucks playing a new army that you get bored with after a dozen games. Meanwhile my chaos army has yet to field all the options and wrecking house. I am spoiled with armies, not everyone is and most only every play one. I wish I could recommend DE to those people but currently I'd never do it unless you are only interested in painting.


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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 02:48

krayd wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter should never have been S* it's lazy and sloppy rule design. It's impossible to balance it fairly or cost it appropriately because it works so differently between different opponents. Another thing to consider is the poison 6+ to wound vehicles really screws the army over, I mean I faced mechanicus last night and trust me, wounding Kastellans on a 6+ sucks, vanguard shooting 3 shots a piece wounding a venom on a 5+ and causing 2 wounds on a 6 sucks even worse.

So would you like to go back to 3rd-4th edition, where splinter pistols/rifles were S3, and wounded marines on 5's? The fact that we can wound vehicles *at all* with splinter weapons is a boon, compared to what we are used to. Sure, wounding vehicles on 6+ sucks, but wounding heavy infantry, bikes, and MCs is on 4+ is nice... and frankly, that's what poison is designed for. I've managed to put enough poison wounds on vehicles in 8th through massed fire that I'm satisfied with it. We just need some added buff options, like splinter racks or characters that make the poison more virulent.

Please read all my posts before responding. I clearly said s3 for small arms and 4 for canons with shred vs infantry only. Your acting as though poison is effective vs elite infantry and monsters, it sucks actually. I'd rather have a weapon tailored at killing enemy light infantry first.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 02:49

I agree with this comment far more than the rest of the ones you've made in here and the point you made that I disagree with lends a lot of clarity to why we disagree red corsair: i abhor the very concept of highlander, and merely want each of our 3 sub factions to have semi viable responses to everything except the sort of army they should be tailored against.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Wed Sep 13 2017, 03:06

amishprn86 wrote:

GW on facebook has acknowledge that the HQs are poor, Wyches needs more help, Reavers are lacking, Many units are overcosted and Splinter cannon was miss handled.  IDK what they will and wont fix but at least they said they agreed these have problems.

Wouldn't happen to have a link would you? I would love to read that discussion.
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